From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDT-JryBBoES2ogLw@googlegroups.com Sat Aug 13 11:03:13 2011 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QsIY9-0000nN-Rd; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 11:03:12 -0700 Received: by vwe42 with SMTP id 42sf1485879vwe.16 for ; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 11:03:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=2qFrbBClzHqRsqwOnUGTiMsqy5fjW9loiRcHxx7+p+Q=; b=nAIl1r1XO4ucF71GCcIorS02PVizVkFhahwla7YSnJ011BTqmDOroW5ZzP/MoV6at7 +8E9pTIhdLufGlibYAUEAy1Rt5hN8ayN4oyrgi/JLxO+LTp4HaM7OBdB1K0kyIoMFQZC GjPVsBnt/Z/y7tqMNitiu3px/m2wPOkBwrp3U= Received: by 10.220.154.148 with SMTP id o20mr99230vcw.7.1313258579553; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 11:02:59 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.28.171 with SMTP id c11ls1357027vdh.1.gmail; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 11:02:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.182.65 with SMTP id ec1mr927732vdc.0.1313258578996; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 11:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.182.65 with SMTP id ec1mr927730vdc.0.1313258578970; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 11:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vx0-f181.google.com ([209.85.220.181]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bh5si5581695vdc.3.2011.08.13.11.02.58 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 13 Aug 2011 11:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.181 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.181; Received: by vxi39 with SMTP id 39so3533478vxi.26 for ; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 11:02:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.77.98 with SMTP id r2mr409405vdw.433.1313258578870; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 11:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.101.170 with HTTP; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 11:02:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20110813124739.GP10697@gonzales> References: <20110811101134.GF10697@gonzales> <1313159555.91794.YahooMailRC@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110812152917.GK10697@gonzales> <20110813082934.GO10697@gonzales> <20110813124739.GP10697@gonzales> Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 15:02:58 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and masses From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.181 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Martin Bays wrote: > > OK. I would like to semi-formalise this understanding as follows: > > The interpretation of a sumti (or more accurately: a sumti-6) consists > of a set of referents and a distributivity flag. The distributivity flag > has three settings: Distributive, Collective, and Ambiguous. When used > in a bridi, the bridi is respectively claimed of each referent, or of > the referents as a gunma, or ambiguously between the two options. > {lo broda} and {loi broda} both return Sumti6 whose referents each > satisfy broda; the difference is just that the flag is set to Ambiguous > in the first and Collective in the second. lu'a and lu'o reset the flag, > but have no other effect. When quantifying (non-fractionally) over > a sumti, the flag is ignored. > > Does this accurately capture the intention of xorlo? Not really. xorlo is about "lo", it has absolutely nothing to say about "loi" or about masses. An ordinary sumti-6 has referents, and that's all it has. The ordinary sumti-6 says absolutely nothing about how its referents will distribute when used as the argument of a predicate. Ordinary sumti-6 are things like "ta", "mi'o", "lo gerku", "la djan", "li ze", "lo ka ce'u barda", "zo bu'u", "lu mi klama lo zarci li'u", "lo'i manti", and so on. There is no consensus on what a sumti-6 headed by "loi" does, since some people think it doesn't just have referents, but it also says how its referents play in a sentence when the sumti is used as the argument of a predicate. That to me seems like too much to ask of a gadri, since there are so many possibilities of how they could distribute: one by one, all together, in pairs, in twos and threes, some individually and others in pairs, and so on. Having a special gadri for the "all together" case seems to me like the wrong way to go about it, but it's a popular description of "loi" (yet not the only one). In the particular case of sumti-6 of form "lo broda", we know of its referents that they broda. It is probably not required that they broda one by one, they may broda together, but this is an open question. The point of xorlo was mainly about removing any implication of how or whether the referents will distribute when used as an argument, not about how they broda. As for the meaning of the gismu "gunma", my take is that it means "x1 consists of x2" or equivalently "x2 constitute x1". x1 is a whole and x2 are its constituents. (Note: "x2 are *the* constituents of x1", not "x2 is/are among the constituents of x1", which is a different predicate.) Thus if "loi broda" does mean "lo gunma be lo broda" then "loi broda" is an ordinary sumti-6, and its referent then does not necessarily broda but rather the constituents of the referent are the ones that broda. (In this case "loi broda" will typically have a single referent, just like "lo'i broda" will typically have a single referent.) But nothing of this is stipulated by xorlo, which is about "lo", not about "loi" nor about the semantics of "gunma". I rather keep that can of worms separate from "lo". mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.