From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCI5pvyBBoEEQadFQ@googlegroups.com Sat Aug 13 14:56:38 2011 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QsMC2-0005fi-MM; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 14:56:38 -0700 Received: by qyk33 with SMTP id 33sf4632382qyk.16 for ; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 14:56:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-id:x-yahoo-newman-property :x-ymail-osg:x-yahoo-smtp:references:in-reply-to :x-apple-yahoo-original-message-folder:mime-version:message-id :x-mailer:from:x-apple-yahoo-replied-msgid:subject:date:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=MjZiuLgJQHUGWZF6h4sNQCPQ7jsy4fvWguu4g0GUIMA=; b=V117Lhi6fhUZ2Mv9Lv8XDg0MwB5GSHdsW+eFiMZULyvY/T9YGTtCisNq9iPHwud7Zg ShrjXvAZR5GWUTeCPKa7X7BgHVc0V3WGwhCZ87ZX5T+UNb+nzO+fKdX7CkPkz1b1Tp5q jCWsh+zfC3QAJIHKwDORsayqRCMF61MhrKRlo= Received: by 10.224.175.75 with SMTP id w11mr286451qaz.6.1313272584369; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 14:56:24 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.196.134 with SMTP id eg6ls9826017qab.6.gmail; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 14:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.216.74 with SMTP id hh10mr1911047qab.29.1313272583455; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 14:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.216.74 with SMTP id hh10mr1911046qab.29.1313272583445; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 14:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm22.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com (nm22.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com [98.139.52.219]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id m27si6295964qcz.2.2011.08.13.14.56.23; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 14:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.52.219 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.139.52.219; Received: from [98.139.52.189] by nm22.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Aug 2011 21:56:23 -0000 Received: from [98.139.52.153] by tm2.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Aug 2011 21:56:23 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1036.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Aug 2011 21:56:23 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 65925.4190.bm@omp1036.mail.ac4.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 18208 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2011 21:56:22 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: S1KbJBoVM1nfafvvoZWuyhs2hvoiipC6F47xUTlEyhFbHDZ 0UQZFqj4R8w5pRW6o9Kc0w.XQDgyXD_b_BmTdizjamC6PUNwvq3CqMKhHz2a 2AQHwgSltnhBjvJSD3pdS3wXbv7nZlmgKC5PgxlmmGPjxM0jRTzUoGufhLoU zQR_u8ir5DjBJUUo.qwP0Uu4iO66_rsFrY._jJ74VT.BW71PkVjiKFgsEq4k Z1ZfcLMhsmOmoEK4E.qHZnjwIwTZpaRGItmiDYV8XbD.UdfsVtSyHvwEexod 1qNvuLoYGB.2vtq3f_6Fx0D5_ZFMbkrlA0Dd2eQOlq.WGGfM84bQiw66p0W7 84UetecCdJ2NEspRhx5rp_HfDZsB_lqYuKNO.1IqO_I0XLMVRV9Cr2sMNJnk FwTAsJBV2IMjz0LXC_F7GtLe0ozefy2AZpC.B9tzBydqLDouxhxG0RiQPNIG G8orZzs8IpX47MhAZPBDkldvNSjEGteLzqPwnKMow0d_PWeks.jKfMP.rZcY - X-Yahoo-SMTP: xvGyF4GswBCIFKGaxf5wSjlg3RF108g- Received: from [192.168.1.68] (kali9putra@99.92.108.41 with xymcookie) by smtp101-mob.biz.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 2011 14:56:22 -0700 PDT References: <20110811101134.GF10697@gonzales> <1313159555.91794.YahooMailRC@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110812152917.GK10697@gonzales> <20110813082934.GO10697@gonzales> <20110813124739.GP10697@gonzales> In-Reply-To: X-Apple-Yahoo-Original-Message-Folder: AAlojbanery Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 8G4) Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPad Mail (8G4) From: "John E. Clifford" X-Apple-Yahoo-Replied-Msgid: 1_9620418_AHjHjkQAAG+vTka8WApGeB3miP8 Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and masses Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 18:05:07 -0400 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.52.219 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the clarification. But I think some of the points you leave up = in the are, in fact decided by usage and could only be changed with conside= rable disruption. That the elements of lo broda may broda collectively and not distributively= seems to me to be settled by something (in fact by) lo sruri be lo dinju. = The answer is affirmative. To put another up in the air case up even further, saying that some brodas = brode collectively doesn't exclude that the collections are less than the w= hole, I.e. that of abcd. ab do it collectively and likewise cd, or any othe= r combination other than each doing it singly (and maybe even that) "constituents" is a dicey word. I suppose you mean "atomic parts for the p= resent purpose", because, if it means something else, we will have all sort= s of problems with just what a quantifier on a gunma quantifies over (given= the indeterminate nature of any components other than the atoms). Sent from my iPad On Aug 13, 2011, at 14:02, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Martin Bays wrote: >>=20 >> OK. I would like to semi-formalise this understanding as follows: >>=20 >> The interpretation of a sumti (or more accurately: a sumti-6) consists >> of a set of referents and a distributivity flag. The distributivity flag >> has three settings: Distributive, Collective, and Ambiguous. When used >> in a bridi, the bridi is respectively claimed of each referent, or of >> the referents as a gunma, or ambiguously between the two options. >> {lo broda} and {loi broda} both return Sumti6 whose referents each >> satisfy broda; the difference is just that the flag is set to Ambiguous >> in the first and Collective in the second. lu'a and lu'o reset the flag, >> but have no other effect. When quantifying (non-fractionally) over >> a sumti, the flag is ignored. >>=20 >> Does this accurately capture the intention of xorlo? >=20 > Not really. xorlo is about "lo", it has absolutely nothing to say > about "loi" or about masses. >=20 > An ordinary sumti-6 has referents, and that's all it has. The ordinary > sumti-6 says absolutely nothing about how its referents will > distribute when used as the argument of a predicate. Ordinary sumti-6 > are things like "ta", "mi'o", "lo gerku", "la djan", "li ze", "lo ka > ce'u barda", "zo bu'u", "lu mi klama lo zarci li'u", "lo'i manti", and > so on. >=20 > There is no consensus on what a sumti-6 headed by "loi" does, since > some people think it doesn't just have referents, but it also says how > its referents play in a sentence when the sumti is used as the > argument of a predicate. That to me seems like too much to ask of a > gadri, since there are so many possibilities of how they could > distribute: one by one, all together, in pairs, in twos and threes, > some individually and others in pairs, and so on. Having a special > gadri for the "all together" case seems to me like the wrong way to go > about it, but it's a popular description of "loi" (yet not the only > one). >=20 > In the particular case of sumti-6 of form "lo broda", we know of its > referents that they broda. It is probably not required that they broda > one by one, they may broda together, but this is an open question. The > point of xorlo was mainly about removing any implication of how or > whether the referents will distribute when used as an argument, not > about how they broda. >=20 > As for the meaning of the gismu "gunma", my take is that it means "x1 > consists of x2" or equivalently "x2 constitute x1". x1 is a whole and > x2 are its constituents. (Note: "x2 are *the* constituents of x1", not > "x2 is/are among the constituents of x1", which is a different > predicate.) >=20 > Thus if "loi broda" does mean "lo gunma be lo broda" then "loi broda" > is an ordinary sumti-6, and its referent then does not necessarily > broda but rather the constituents of the referent are the ones that > broda. (In this case "loi broda" will typically have a single > referent, just like "lo'i broda" will typically have a single > referent.) But nothing of this is stipulated by xorlo, which is about > "lo", not about "loi" nor about the semantics of "gunma". I rather > keep that can of worms separate from "lo". >=20 > mu'o mi'e xorxes >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. >=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.