From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCE8ZvyBBoE09VDvA@googlegroups.com Sat Aug 13 15:20:01 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QsMYg-0006Ni-I8; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 15:20:00 -0700 Received: by qwh5 with SMTP id 5sf4680065qwh.16 for ; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 15:19:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=MRvh/GCXhTud+i8OLYEmIrGhRs26ctHBGryvwhUwPU0=; b=gsqgcFmBbMgec3bLIWinTd3VWduVOcQKKnguIwu4YaK6ItHt1eMRvk0QS0XYcjT7N+ SAgXpOp2prN9eLOFS5IINdeHd9dxJDz1fIRDk7D5WJ6FsSnDbUueRuFlz0Vfh/aidoGW EaTqBRi3lps5NRfhwgxQe8E7NZ/SfZWBdm2UA= Received: by 10.224.184.2 with SMTP id ci2mr291788qab.3.1313273988035; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 15:19:48 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.78.133 with SMTP id l5ls9870351qak.4.gmail; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 15:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.205.71 with SMTP id fp7mr2044462qab.4.1313273987443; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 15:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.205.71 with SMTP id fp7mr2044461qab.4.1313273987422; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 15:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vx0-f174.google.com ([209.85.220.174]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i2si6324111qcv.1.2011.08.13.15.19.47 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 13 Aug 2011 15:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.174 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.174; Received: by vxi9 with SMTP id 9so4192509vxi.5 for ; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 15:19:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.94.109 with SMTP id db13mr2316479vdb.366.1313273987105; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 15:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.101.170 with HTTP; Sat, 13 Aug 2011 15:19:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20110811101134.GF10697@gonzales> <1313159555.91794.YahooMailRC@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110812152917.GK10697@gonzales> <20110813082934.GO10697@gonzales> <20110813124739.GP10697@gonzales> Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 19:19:47 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and masses From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.174 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 7:05 PM, John E. Clifford wr= ote: > Thanks for the clarification. =A0But I think some of the points you leave= up in the are, in fact decided by usage and could only be changed with con= siderable disruption. > > That the elements of lo broda may broda collectively and not distributive= ly seems to me to be settled by something (in fact by) lo sruri be lo dinju= . =A0The answer is affirmative. I agree, but I'm not sure that's officially established anywhere. > To put another up in the air case up even further, saying that some broda= s brode collectively doesn't exclude that the collections are less than the= whole, I.e. that of abcd. ab do it collectively and likewise cd, or any ot= her combination other than each doing it singly (and maybe even that) I don't know about that. If "collectively" covers every combination from "all together" down to "one by one", then I'm not sure what it is supposed to be a distinction from. > "constituents" is a dicey word. =A0I suppose you mean "atomic parts for t= he present purpose", because, if it means something else, we will have all = sorts of problems with just what a quantifier on a gunma quantifies over (g= iven the indeterminate nature of any components other than the atoms). In my view, "ro lo gunma be lo broda" quantifies over groups of broda, and "ro lo se gunma be lo broda" quantifies over constituents of broda, which obviously has to be something with constituents for it to make sense. What counts as a constituent is of course defined by context, no different from "ro lo pagbu be lo broda", "ro lo spisa be lo broda", "ro lo panlo be lo broda", and so on. As for "ro loi broda", I have no idea. There are two competing interpretations: "ro lo gunma be lo broda" and "ro lo broda". I prefer not using "loi" at all. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.