From lojban+bncCOTEtqyUDhC0-aDzBBoEvK6vOw@googlegroups.com Wed Sep 07 20:55:43 2011 Received: from mail-pz0-f56.google.com ([209.85.210.56]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1R1ViG-0002Yf-GS; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 20:55:43 -0700 Received: by pzk33 with SMTP id 33sf662739pzk.1 for ; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 20:55:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:x-pgp-key :x-pgp-keyid:x-cunselcu'a-valsi:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=M0pnyJpCeVtVWKakZpoiqqDWuKqm2nUEHI3IXraIloI=; b=1bOhM6q2QkK4tuFj8J/xZxxvpPGD1v858NrezyY5jjo/999tpidyZ9JRntQ/ZM3r+r VOFCVuck5LvqB3E2ov3fCTi4lU8rLPYkSyi0aqrmuKF0TsUGLnfsxd79hLoDjkRjbC8F RKYwI7kBKeMXZCCNhuD1Hib4PJU6/fvyOFifo= Received: by 10.68.35.170 with SMTP id i10mr32093pbj.33.1315454132635; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 20:55:32 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.155.210 with SMTP id vy18ls9426614pbb.2.gmail; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 20:55:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.22.198 with SMTP id g6mr136986pbf.29.1315454132061; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 20:55:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.22.198 with SMTP id g6mr136985pbf.29.1315454132050; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 20:55:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sdf.lonestar.org (mx.sdf.org. [192.94.73.19]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j4si4807411pbi.2.2011.09.07.20.55.31 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 07 Sep 2011 20:55:32 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) client-ip=192.94.73.19; Received: from gonzales.homelinux.org (root@sverige.freeshell.org [192.94.73.4]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.4/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p883tVsA021099 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2011 03:55:31 GMT Received: from martin by gonzales.homelinux.org with local (Exim 4.75) (envelope-from ) id 1R1Vi7-0002S2-2Z for lojban@googlegroups.com; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 23:55:31 -0400 Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 23:55:31 -0400 From: Martin Bays To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable Message-ID: <20110908035531.GN30833@gonzales> References: <20110907030141.GA30833@gonzales> <20110908003133.GJ30833@gonzales> <20110908020307.GK30833@gonzales> <20110908034236.GM30833@gonzales> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="7IgncvKP0CVPV/ZZ" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20110908034236.GM30833@gonzales> X-PGP-Key: http://mbays.freeshell.org/pubkey.asc X-PGP-KeyId: B5FB2CD6 X-cunselcu'a-valsi: kecti User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Original-Sender: mbays@sdf.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mbays@sdf.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , --7IgncvKP0CVPV/ZZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Wednesday, 2011-09-07 at 23:42 -0400 - Martin Bays : > * Wednesday, 2011-09-07 at 23:58 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=EDas : >=20 > > On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 11:03 PM, Martin Bays wrote: > > > * Wednesday, 2011-09-07 at 21:47 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=EDas : > > But functions don't have scope either, it is quantifiers that have > > scope. If a function happens to take a bound variable as an argument, > > then its value will be determined within the scope of the quantifier > > that binds that variable, yes. >=20 > I think this is just different language for the same thing - i.e. you're > Skolemising away the existential quantifiers > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skolem_normal_form). (...which I agree is the right thing to do if we want to get at the idea that the speaker has, to some degree or other, a specific constant/function in mind) --7IgncvKP0CVPV/ZZ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk5oPLMACgkQULC7OLX7LNbAvACaA6KKuesSGqu88sQyM6wOtp5v avYAoLOSFtLRUwoGWCeF15vcMabKVoay =Q1YE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --7IgncvKP0CVPV/ZZ--