From lojban+bncCMLaiI6rCBDk46TzBBoEkvS-gg@googlegroups.com Thu Sep 08 14:21:51 2011 Received: from mail-vw0-f56.google.com ([209.85.212.56]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1R1m2e-0002tO-Lq; Thu, 08 Sep 2011 14:21:51 -0700 Received: by vws15 with SMTP id 15sf196008vws.1 for ; Thu, 08 Sep 2011 14:21:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:references:user-agent :x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=vuhy9iu4WchbsfMRfmXzWaePTPWmQmzeTNjpAihqRIU=; b=AEG8RTdeUQlxiiKyZrOinmhv4gH/ZHPuVdAQ0HhgWPvkB57Cu7mmH5Gx7OOWsJ22IS Nft5D/60sC4pCu/NWBO7WEsUQyUiBTu4p9N0SSoKkd89Pe6x9kTlMT25mh3RkqDAcDMN CYVlFKSpd16VuEUZra32kCci0tsFmPU1gzOOw= Received: by 10.220.161.144 with SMTP id r16mr265211vcx.57.1315516900242; Thu, 08 Sep 2011 14:21:40 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.149.206 with SMTP id u14ls1446352vcv.4.canary; Thu, 08 Sep 2011 14:21:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.117.148 with SMTP id r20mr278346vcq.4.1315516899487; Thu, 08 Sep 2011 14:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by d12g2000vba.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Thu, 8 Sep 2011 14:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 14:21:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20110902145107.GA19571@gonzales> User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686) AppleWebKit/534.30 (KHTML, like Gecko) Ubuntu/11.04 Chromium/12.0.742.112 Chrome/12.0.742.112 Safari/534.30,gzip(gfe) Message-ID: <7a43fea9-37ac-4b61-9e6f-a1a6582b591e@d12g2000vba.googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: paradox From: ianek To: lojban X-Original-Sender: janek37@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: ls.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of janek37@gmail.com designates internal as permitted sender) smtp.mail=janek37@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I assumed so earlier, but now I've looked at http://www.lojban.org/files/hi= story/bothraf.txt and it says that {sevzi} rafsi was laways {sez}... sevzi sez sei sevz sez se'i sevz So it's either an error in bothraf.txt or Nick's mistake. mu'o mi'e ianek On Sep 7, 3:09=A0pm, Michael Turniansky wrote: > =A0 I assume this was before the great rafsi shift, since you correctly s= tated > in your original letter that it would now be "sezra'a". > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 2:52 PM, ianek wrote: > > Oh, I see that {sevra'a} has already been used in that meaning in > >http://www.lojban.org/files/texts/moser > > > On Sep 2, 8:47 pm, ianek wrote: > > >http://dag.github.com/cll/11/4/ > > > > Quote: > > > It is also possible to have more than one =93ce'u=94 in a =93ka=94 > > > abstraction, which transforms it from a property abstraction into a > > > relationship abstraction. Relationship abstractions =93package up=94 = a > > > complex relationship for future use; such an abstraction can be > > > translated back into a selbri by placing it in the x2 place of the > > > selbri =93bridi=94, whose place structure is: > > > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=93bridi=94: x1 is a predicate relationship with relat= ion > > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0x2 (abstraction) among arguments (sequence= /set) x3 > > > End quote. > > > > So, {lo ka ce'u ce'u na ckaji} is not right. It should be something > > > like {lo ka ce'u lo nei na ckaji} unless I'm wrong (not sure whether > > > {nei} refers to the inner bridi). {vo'a} can't be used here, as it > > > refers to the x1 of the outer bridi, ie. the full abstraction. {ri} > > > can't be used also, as it doesn't refer to KOhA. > > > > This opens a subject which bugged me for a long time: how are > > > reflexive relationships handled in Lojban? I've seen lujvo with > > > {sevzi} to handle them, but this doesn't seem right in general, as th= e > > > definition of {sevzi} suggests a concious being (unless I'm wrong), s= o > > > it couldn't be used to make eg. {sezra'a} mean "x1 is self- > > > referential". > > > > mu'o mi'e ianek > > > > On Sep 2, 4:51 pm, Martin Bays wrote: > > > > > Cute Russel for properties, which translates nicely to lojban: > > > > > xu lo ka ce'u ce'u na ckaji ku vo'a ckaji > > > > > =A0application_pgp-signature_part > > > > < 1KViewDownload > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.