From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCIhrDzBBoEnV8HYg@googlegroups.com Sat Sep 10 17:38:44 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1R2Y4G-0001p2-Sf; Sat, 10 Sep 2011 17:38:43 -0700 Received: by fxg17 with SMTP id 17sf1035610fxg.16 for ; Sat, 10 Sep 2011 17:38:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=cWRJpzHFdjhphE6fdohWlxGCbYuvGf3EtWYde61zufA=; b=oSisN0JQ8bFGZiRN2Z0WflUqgIazC+Tv78wYTvjEs5Z8x6BV5LZWvjK+gUo2EcXF5o sSjTZY+4+eFtJleAaZdL790gE/YHLjz2GIJCLeE1TyDqP7xKpTyBHFmnoY0MmN2P6L3I TExeHD7yoosdAAdiEFLR20SLOXueKO5xl3KAM= Received: by 10.223.21.146 with SMTP id j18mr307275fab.18.1315701512558; Sat, 10 Sep 2011 17:38:32 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.148.152 with SMTP id p24ls4399137bkv.0.gmail; Sat, 10 Sep 2011 17:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.7.220 with SMTP id e28mr168344bke.5.1315701510368; Sat, 10 Sep 2011 17:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.7.220 with SMTP id e28mr168343bke.5.1315701510341; Sat, 10 Sep 2011 17:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f54.google.com (mail-fx0-f54.google.com [209.85.161.54]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f27si535749faf.2.2011.09.10.17.38.30 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 10 Sep 2011 17:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.54 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.54; Received: by mail-fx0-f54.google.com with SMTP id 4so4703011fxe.41 for ; Sat, 10 Sep 2011 17:38:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.62.8 with SMTP id v8mr2180440fah.43.1315701509368; Sat, 10 Sep 2011 17:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.152.41.68 with HTTP; Sat, 10 Sep 2011 17:38:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4E6BD617.5070703@lojban.org> References: <4E6BD617.5070703@lojban.org> Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 18:38:29 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] fu'ivla From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.54 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015173ffa1818aae304ac9fa1be --0015173ffa1818aae304ac9fa1be Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 3:26 PM, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG wrote: > Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > >> On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 8:10 AM, Remo Dentato wrote= : >> >> I've noticed that camxes allows any number of wovels and {'} before >>> the consonant cluster that each brivla must have. >>> >>> For example: {a'e'o'u'i'ailto} >>> >>> The CLL rule was that each brivla had to have a consonante cluster >>> within the first five letters, not counting {y} and {'}, has this >>> changed for fuhivla? >>> >> >> >> Yes, I purposely dropped that requirement when writing the PEG >> morphology, since it was arbitrary and not needed for anything. >> There's no reason to allow ".a'a'alto" but forbid "pa'a'alto" due to >> some strange counting of letters rule. >> >> It was observed that in all lujvo and gismu there is a consonant >> cluster within the first five letters, and someone thought it was a >> good idea to impose this as a rule for all brivla, but since this is >> not something that is required to define lujvo or gismu, nor is it >> needed to make the parsing of fu'ivla unambiguous, it is a pointless >> rule. >> > > Pointless if you are a computer perhaps. > > If you are a human being, given that human beings read focusing on the > starting and ending of words, being able to classify the word as a brivla > and not a compound cmavo written as one word (like "lenu") without having= to > exercise a complex algorithm, is a virtue. > > I see no reason to support a change relaxing the rule, until/unless someo= ne > points out an actual advantage to it as opposed to allowing anything that > isn't impossible to disambiguate. > > Put more strongly, I'd like even tighter restrictions on fu'ivla space to > make them more easily recognizable as a distinct word class, but our > attempts to come up with simple and reasonable rules came to nought (I wi= ll > still only use rafsi-headed fu'ivla when I write for the indefinite futur= e, > because that was the one simple rule that seemed to be human processible = at > reading speed). > > lojbab > -- > Bob LeChevalier lojbab@lojban.org www.lojban.org > President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc. My own personal rule is, basically, "use lujvo or cmene instead". I loathe fu'ivla. --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0015173ffa1818aae304ac9fa1be Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 3:26 PM, Bob LeChevalier= , President and Founder - LLG <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote:
On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 8:10 AM, Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com> wrote:

I've noticed that camxes allows any number of wovels and {'} before=
the consonant cluster that each brivla must have.

For example: {a'e'o'u'i'ailto}

The CLL rule was that each brivla had to have a consonante cluster
within the first five letters, not counting {y} and {'}, has this
changed for fuhivla?


Yes, I purposely dropped that requirement when writing the PEG
morphology, since it was arbitrary and not needed for anything.
There's no reason to allow ".a'a'alto" but forbid &qu= ot;pa'a'alto" due to
some strange counting of letters rule.

It was observed that in all lujvo and gismu there is a consonant
cluster within the first five letters, and someone thought it was a
good idea to impose this as a rule for all brivla, but since this is
not something that is required to define lujvo or gismu, nor is it
needed to make the parsing of fu'ivla unambiguous, it is a pointless rule.

Pointless if you are a computer perhaps.

If you are a human being, given that human beings read focusing on the star= ting and ending of words, being able to classify the word as a brivla and n= ot a compound cmavo written as one word (like "lenu") without hav= ing to exercise a complex algorithm, is a virtue.

I see no reason to support a change relaxing the rule, until/unless someone= points out an actual advantage to it as opposed to allowing anything that = isn't impossible to disambiguate.

Put more strongly, I'd like even tighter restrictions on fu'ivla sp= ace to make them more easily recognizable as a distinct word class, but our= attempts to come up with simple and reasonable rules came to nought (I wil= l still only use rafsi-headed fu'ivla when I write for the indefinite f= uture, because that was the one simple rule that seemed to be human process= ible at reading speed).

lojbab
--
Bob LeChevalier =A0 =A0lojbab@lojban.org =A0 =A0www.lojban.org
President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
=

My own personal rule is, basically, "use lujvo or cmene inst= ead". I loathe fu'ivla.

--
mu'o mi= 9;e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&= #39;o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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