From lojban+bncCNTPpI2KGxCOorDzBBoEox-MpA@googlegroups.com Sat Sep 10 18:38:33 2011 Received: from mail-vx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.220.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1R2Z0A-0003eV-N6; Sat, 10 Sep 2011 18:38:33 -0700 Received: by vxk12 with SMTP id 12sf1187261vxk.16 for ; Sat, 10 Sep 2011 18:38:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-authority-analysis:x-cloudmark-score :x-originating-ip:from:to:subject:date:user-agent:references :in-reply-to:mime-version:message-id:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; bh=9CSExXIU8Bv1kDIZruyfwETbKVGpya2wLCtJW73flL8=; b=G/xZwaprvcyHhDdUJG7qMRpqNiEOrNLgGNaIP8UxP1w3LgNcE5QG4r6KCY1PtwYXgZ AZEaTQHVkF9G3IN5BRVFS+89kCJ4RGlf0g7si6fxSlaNUfxfDIGZICPiNuuvOqjN9far ykJKUVn4GQ47qvhDYBHv0u9jf/3FCNSdJBj/c= Received: by 10.220.116.82 with SMTP id l18mr665875vcq.56.1315705102981; Sat, 10 Sep 2011 18:38:22 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.165.194 with SMTP id j2ls110699vcy.4.canary; Sat, 10 Sep 2011 18:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.21.180 with SMTP id w20mr1902376vde.1.1315705102292; Sat, 10 Sep 2011 18:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.21.180 with SMTP id w20mr1902375vde.1.1315705102283; Sat, 10 Sep 2011 18:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.121]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id el8si5425813vdb.2.2011.09.10.18.38.20; Sat, 10 Sep 2011 18:38:20 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 75.180.132.121 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) client-ip=75.180.132.121; X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=clOQl2Kon9ihL0vqe5S6shCOWnQ8eDPHG/StQ1omz74= c=1 sm=0 a=6ti_TD8eFm8A:10 a=wPDyFdB5xvgA:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=9o99xeNKNPYSmM5t9x5+TQ==:17 a=cVna0ny8_z9vS8xfLjcA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=9o99xeNKNPYSmM5t9x5+TQ==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 75.176.118.168 Received: from [75.176.118.168] ([75.176.118.168:37135] helo=chausie) by cdptpa-oedge01.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 50/8A-15370-C011C6E4; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 01:38:20 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chausie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E4461560B for ; Sat, 10 Sep 2011 21:38:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] fu'ivla Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 21:38:15 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 (enterprise 0.20070907.709405) References: <4E6BD617.5070703@lojban.org> In-Reply-To: <4E6BD617.5070703@lojban.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <201109102138.16358.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Original-Sender: phma@phma.optus.nu X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 75.180.132.121 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) smtp.mail=phma@phma.optus.nu Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Saturday 10 September 2011 17:26:47 Bob LeChevalier, President and=20 Founder - LLG wrote: > If you are a human being, given that human beings read focusing on the > starting and ending of words, being able to classify the word as a > brivla and not a compound cmavo written as one word (like "lenu") > without having to exercise a complex algorithm, is a virtue. I think that your supposition is incorrect. In Indo-European languages it i= s=20 generally true that grammatical information is found at the end of words, a= nd=20 in Bantu languages it is found at the beginning. In Afro-Asiatic languages,= =20 though, roots consist of consonants and much of the grammatical information= =20 is encoded in the vowels between the consonants and in the doubling of=20 consonants. One of these languages, namely Arabic, is a source language. An= d=20 many East Asian languages have little if any inflection and consist mostly = of=20 monosyllabic morphemes. Among them is another source language, Chinese. Anyone who grows up with one of these morphologies internalizes it. Likewis= e a=20 verclijbo internalizes the rule that the second consonant in a brivla eithe= r=20 is next to another consonant or is followed by "y" and a consonant. He also= =20 internalizes the morphology of lujvo and the valid consonant clusters. If the current entries are any indication, the number of fu'ivla beginning= =20 with at least three vowels, possibly with apostrophes, and preceded by zero= =20 or one consonant, is going to be small even if the rule is relaxed. The=20 current entries, plus words in my head, beginning with three vowels are: aierne (and variant ai'erne, to satisfy camxes) uaizdo, variant of aizdo io'imbe. There are several experimental cmavo of the form CV'VV or CVV'V, but none h= ave=20 been entered with at least three vowels and no consonant. ("a'oi" isn't=20 entered; a nautical vocative, as far as I know, exists only in Germanic=20 languages and languages which have borrowed from them.) Any word whose firs= t=20 vowel is in a group of at least three, and which ends in a vowel, is either= =20 an experimental cmavo or a fu'ivla, so the reader will have to think to=20 figure out the meaning, which will take much longer than figuring out if it= 's=20 a cmavo or a fu'ivla. Lastly, a complex algorithm is better than no algorithm at all. In all the= =20 natlangs I know, there are words that belong to at least two open grammatic= al=20 classes, and I can exhibit such words in three of the six source languages= =20 (entrance, intimidad, =D0=BF=D0=BE=D0=BF=D1=83=D0=B3=D0=B0=D1=8E; all are b= oth nouns and verbs). In Lojban one=20 can decide in polynomial time whether something that looks like a brivla is= a=20 valid brivla, a brivla preceded by a cmavo, or a slinku'i. Pierre --=20 Don't buy a French car in Holland. It may be a citroen. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.