From lojban+bncCK7Yk5CUCxCpz7HzBBoEb1BsbQ@googlegroups.com Sun Sep 11 00:48:04 2011 Received: from mail-gw0-f57.google.com ([74.125.83.57]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1R2ell-0006th-Iw; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 00:48:04 -0700 Received: by gwj18 with SMTP id 18sf2978739gwj.2 for ; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 00:47:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=fXmKWhXAPwkrOCE0G1yE3JTREDsq9x8mz+sQSnOiG8E=; b=zJaLLl5CX6+UH88hXNmVrnRdMMu/FCGk15P+5kZZcmBNMcFtphvr92TmwBiQo1W+xM e4wG5oS2izkXVjoqBwFvxpHKhcDksx/GMt6QrhMbw4eqC2qA3aJiJpcXEN2Fp+c6cXUr B7gmiB/0diQ1j2npEMTZ6mSuX+yyCt36b5Pfc= Received: by 10.150.62.14 with SMTP id k14mr585138yba.17.1315727273504; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 00:47:53 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.189.18 with SMTP id r18ls13939726anp.1.gmail; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 00:47:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.171.16 with SMTP id y16mr1193683ano.5.1315727272881; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 00:47:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.171.16 with SMTP id y16mr1193682ano.5.1315727272867; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 00:47:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gy0-f171.google.com (mail-gy0-f171.google.com [209.85.160.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v10si6080567anq.2.2011.09.11.00.47.52 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 11 Sep 2011 00:47:52 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.171; Received: by gyh3 with SMTP id 3so1758995gyh.30 for ; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 00:47:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.105.146 with SMTP id v18mr873608ico.429.1315727272559; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 00:47:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.180.6 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 00:47:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4E6BD617.5070703@lojban.org> Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 09:47:52 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] fu'ivla From: Remo Dentato To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rdentato@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rdentato@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 2:38 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > My own personal rule is, basically, "use lujvo or cmene instead". I loathe > fu'ivla. While fu'ivla can be easily misused, I think they have a very important function and we should use them more. There are concepts and words that are extremely specific to a culture (a group of people, a scientific field, etc..) trying to translate them would only create confusion and narrow the meaning of a lujvo forcing it to mean exactly that specific thing. cmevla and fu'ivla are the only two mechanisms to borrow words from other languages, I wish cmevla were brivla as it was discussed here some time ago but the argument has been dismissed for the time being. I do understand Bob's point but I think that the restriction is more harmful than beneficial. I assume that if anyone wants to borrow a word, he is doing it for a very good reason and he should be able to shape the fu'ivla as close as possible to the original word so that it is still recognizable. I do expect to see very very few fu'ivla with a consonant cluster after the fifth letter, but why restrict the ability of creating them just for a matter of principle? As a listener, if a brivla is not a gismu nor a lujvo (which one should recognize easily) then it is a fu'ivla and if I don't know the meaning I might get it for its resemblance with the corresponding orginal word. remod -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.