From lojban+bncCMLaiI6rCBDdyYTzBBoEme9Ttw@googlegroups.com Fri Sep 02 11:48:07 2011 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QzYma-0000T4-Kc; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 11:48:07 -0700 Received: by gwb11 with SMTP id 11sf2843900gwb.16 for ; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 11:47:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:references:user-agent :x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=5cjSZgrJ3WVRsimjkw+K37mBWZagtf+KYt+QUPIeux8=; b=QmhT0cFeNMmOJeG5KHq/FX71z8O+IYWLEuiJmmNEne8+hbrok00uqtWE16xPlmxg8Q WpWN0vHrWcmiuthrVRi81ewyt7hi1vxrVlwhVy4pcPGH3T++NjAK1Uj7EzrYn5DX/5CK 6QuO0w+QeKcdFJ9w7K7DOh/FvJee85xnz2VTs= Received: by 10.91.19.7 with SMTP id w7mr224931agi.26.1314989277052; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 11:47:57 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.90.4.23 with SMTP id 23ls5557977agd.3.gmail; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 11:47:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.91.155.4 with SMTP id h4mr166258ago.6.1314989276160; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 11:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by h7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Fri, 2 Sep 2011 11:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 11:47:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20110902145107.GA19571@gonzales> References: <20110902145107.GA19571@gonzales> User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686) AppleWebKit/534.30 (KHTML, like Gecko) Ubuntu/11.04 Chromium/12.0.742.112 Chrome/12.0.742.112 Safari/534.30,gzip(gfe) Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Re: paradox From: ianek To: lojban X-Original-Sender: janek37@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: ls.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of janek37@gmail.com designates internal as permitted sender) smtp.mail=janek37@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://dag.github.com/cll/11/4/ Quote: It is also possible to have more than one =93ce'u=94 in a =93ka=94 abstraction, which transforms it from a property abstraction into a relationship abstraction. Relationship abstractions =93package up=94 a complex relationship for future use; such an abstraction can be translated back into a selbri by placing it in the x2 place of the selbri =93bridi=94, whose place structure is: =93bridi=94: x1 is a predicate relationship with relation x2 (abstraction) among arguments (sequence/set) x3 End quote. So, {lo ka ce'u ce'u na ckaji} is not right. It should be something like {lo ka ce'u lo nei na ckaji} unless I'm wrong (not sure whether {nei} refers to the inner bridi). {vo'a} can't be used here, as it refers to the x1 of the outer bridi, ie. the full abstraction. {ri} can't be used also, as it doesn't refer to KOhA. This opens a subject which bugged me for a long time: how are reflexive relationships handled in Lojban? I've seen lujvo with {sevzi} to handle them, but this doesn't seem right in general, as the definition of {sevzi} suggests a concious being (unless I'm wrong), so it couldn't be used to make eg. {sezra'a} mean "x1 is self- referential". mu'o mi'e ianek On Sep 2, 4:51=A0pm, Martin Bays wrote: > Cute Russel for properties, which translates nicely to lojban: > > xu lo ka ce'u ce'u na ckaji ku vo'a ckaji > > =A0application_pgp-signature_part > < 1KViewDownload --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.