From lojban+bncCMLaiI6rCBDey4TzBBoE-9eQ8w@googlegroups.com Fri Sep 02 11:52:28 2011 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QzYqk-0000ZZ-24; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 11:52:27 -0700 Received: by gwb11 with SMTP id 11sf2846833gwb.16 for ; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 11:52:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:references:user-agent :x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=QqxRrrFvSKalrvPpg/ikPP4FYGFtnp+TfHDeCPbmCF8=; b=R7IEcg0wQcyvSxitO9JRub9gTUXzvDnC4NzCU3wtg9w+h9GeIlXU6WasP0+S1ey8Kx FiuYi6hAc8LoMZ5lTSehUDpzailBRa2UJjZsePvAOx7XlfK+YU9DhSVuCy92S0VKENdm 0jT/DKOSVbCO9meqwXY92dthca7fs1rxpuELo= Received: by 10.91.80.10 with SMTP id h10mr241010agl.28.1314989534010; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 11:52:14 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.90.22.16 with SMTP id 16ls5383471agv.7.gmail; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 11:52:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.90.131.11 with SMTP id e11mr244677agd.4.1314989532003; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 11:52:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by y21g2000yqy.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Fri, 2 Sep 2011 11:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 11:52:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20110902145107.GA19571@gonzales> User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686) AppleWebKit/534.30 (KHTML, like Gecko) Ubuntu/11.04 Chromium/12.0.742.112 Chrome/12.0.742.112 Safari/534.30,gzip(gfe) Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Re: paradox From: ianek To: lojban X-Original-Sender: janek37@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: ls.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of janek37@gmail.com designates internal as permitted sender) smtp.mail=janek37@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oh, I see that {sevra'a} has already been used in that meaning in http://www.lojban.org/files/texts/moser On Sep 2, 8:47=A0pm, ianek wrote: > http://dag.github.com/cll/11/4/ > > Quote: > It is also possible to have more than one =93ce'u=94 in a =93ka=94 > abstraction, which transforms it from a property abstraction into a > relationship abstraction. Relationship abstractions =93package up=94 a > complex relationship for future use; such an abstraction can be > translated back into a selbri by placing it in the x2 place of the > selbri =93bridi=94, whose place structure is: > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=93bridi=94: x1 is a predicate relationship with relation > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0x2 (abstraction) among arguments (sequence/set= ) x3 > End quote. > > So, {lo ka ce'u ce'u na ckaji} is not right. It should be something > like {lo ka ce'u lo nei na ckaji} unless I'm wrong (not sure whether > {nei} refers to the inner bridi). {vo'a} can't be used here, as it > refers to the x1 of the outer bridi, ie. the full abstraction. {ri} > can't be used also, as it doesn't refer to KOhA. > > This opens a subject which bugged me for a long time: how are > reflexive relationships handled in Lojban? I've seen lujvo with > {sevzi} to handle them, but this doesn't seem right in general, as the > definition of {sevzi} suggests a concious being (unless I'm wrong), so > it couldn't be used to make eg. {sezra'a} mean "x1 is self- > referential". > > mu'o mi'e ianek > > On Sep 2, 4:51=A0pm, Martin Bays wrote: > > > > > > > > > Cute Russel for properties, which translates nicely to lojban: > > > xu lo ka ce'u ce'u na ckaji ku vo'a ckaji > > > =A0application_pgp-signature_part > > < 1KViewDownload --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.