From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDc2ITzBBoERfAKdw@googlegroups.com Fri Sep 02 12:20:23 2011 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QzZHo-0001us-4z; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:20:23 -0700 Received: by gyc15 with SMTP id 15sf2733604gyc.16 for ; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:20:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:message-id:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=a1EpLivGyUICS33M+K4LX8xePAaooOBuWqXXddfnZe0=; b=RPp2A82h4VLj501pZsvEmc3nMV7ZJLWHN2I4A6Qool/NBT9IC2v604FIfq7hvQQTMb vwGBwuMmQoIgbeV91u/dnpedCbHhrtqdaHYsEdNnAHy12w0zV8uOWIvz0RNZmjh3Jh8r 4D1CRMGAfUwr2Ni5fOIQeUszUuw7X2J1kyQno= Received: by 10.100.24.36 with SMTP id 36mr180440anx.21.1314991196517; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:19:56 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.171.12 with SMTP id y12ls4066557ano.2.gmail; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:19:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.192.9 with SMTP id p9mr1206901anf.53.1314991195548; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:19:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.192.9 with SMTP id p9mr1206900anf.53.1314991195519; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:19:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm18.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm18.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.219]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id g7si13437ane.1.2011.09.02.12.19.55; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:19:55 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.219 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.219; Received: from [66.94.237.197] by nm18.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Sep 2011 19:19:55 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.98] by tm8.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Sep 2011 19:19:55 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1003.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Sep 2011 19:19:55 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 224871.5631.bm@omp1003.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 70659 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Sep 2011 19:19:55 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: OoZ3PGsVM1nAB0ayZ1BrhsIGvdOxp8XcHQdW8me0P14lpHU 3vUUSmCa8jzp4xBwyMRniOxXSsLz9s43yfxx1HEF5zwTu1mpXwa6xUUhyrx4 x3lEpkNn9EPiyY7PcZHQckC0UPMyr6IaD_64fac8ZSN0llynd0O_poeXdyFT zUtWX0MHwdTqajykdTv8r8964KECcNLPFtQ12ECmUOX5y5lm6DimRdKQecgR _OdPFmpikxCqZHGKg9J4VOrbmgpmDRTY7whgUtebpw8Vn7.GsXbThk0jLp6e j1tBJiIdTRAj2ePzZZeyXwAyfdVOzmjWXcSVpEHOS_k9N5WHReNd7BUdKfje oseQZrjZFgEpLv_qphS9qHO308YjESNkHBmzkIcqByMPd1pA5Ra_6BnhVoll XK1tUb5AoN.jdLuqpnU0BzyJcNmuCmkgnfElIyR5.10CU5sJ1G1UDa2gYtOH o_bNB7xeygOdOwdwbgWER6iN6dk1lFDgpolnxQ4s4EbVT.E4RcWNf6j1pewB NUyWQzKL5uqtBaX9R7de7LddnheQi07iBAOWu9rNAErS1df37qbZwaOijbVg NkeciqB8WSfmSDDhwwMXLoXcFPWspOA-- Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:19:54 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/574 YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.315625 References: <20110902145107.GA19571@gonzales> Message-ID: <1314991194.52154.YahooMailRC@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 12:19:54 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: paradox To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.219 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A place where Lojban deviated from logic, in that the "x" that is represent= ed by=20 'ce'u' is a *bound* variable but without an explicit binder (historically= =20 lambda), so, since there is only one word available for this role, it is ha= rd to=20 tell whether the second 'ce'u' is another occurrence of the first (which is= what=20 is intended) or a new variable with a new (implicit) binder. Subscripting = the=20 'ce'u's would solve this problem, but no one seems to do it (and I am not e= ven=20 sure 'ce'u' can take a subscript). I think the second interpretation is the= =20 default one, but I couldn't find any discussion of how then to deal with th= e=20 first case. ----- Original Message ---- From: ianek To: lojban Sent: Fri, September 2, 2011 1:47:56 PM Subject: [lojban] Re: paradox http://dag.github.com/cll/11/4/ Quote: It is also possible to have more than one =93ce'u=94 in a =93ka=94 abstraction, which transforms it from a property abstraction into a relationship abstraction. Relationship abstractions =93package up=94 a complex relationship for future use; such an abstraction can be translated back into a selbri by placing it in the x2 place of the selbri =93bridi=94, whose place structure is: =93bridi=94: x1 is a predicate relationship with relation x2 (abstraction) among arguments (sequence/set) x3 End quote. So, {lo ka ce'u ce'u na ckaji} is not right. It should be something like {lo ka ce'u lo nei na ckaji} unless I'm wrong (not sure whether {nei} refers to the inner bridi). {vo'a} can't be used here, as it refers to the x1 of the outer bridi, ie. the full abstraction. {ri} can't be used also, as it doesn't refer to KOhA. This opens a subject which bugged me for a long time: how are reflexive relationships handled in Lojban? I've seen lujvo with {sevzi} to handle them, but this doesn't seem right in general, as the definition of {sevzi} suggests a concious being (unless I'm wrong), so it couldn't be used to make eg. {sezra'a} mean "x1 is self- referential". mu'o mi'e ianek On Sep 2, 4:51 pm, Martin Bays wrote: > Cute Russel for properties, which translates nicely to lojban: > > xu lo ka ce'u ce'u na ckaji ku vo'a ckaji > > application_pgp-signature_part > < 1KViewDownload --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.