From lojban+bncCOTEtqyUDhCtqMDzBBoEhtHoxw@googlegroups.com Tue Sep 13 19:40:56 2011 Received: from mail-pz0-f57.google.com ([209.85.210.57]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1R3fPB-0001HW-GH; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 19:40:55 -0700 Received: by pzk5 with SMTP id 5sf2223383pzk.12 for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 19:40:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:x-pgp-key :x-pgp-keyid:x-cunselcu'a-valsi:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=9T7cvyKK5ZATFrLYMdNpa7K557MM1/kG0SaA9RpLl+w=; b=zTQ+jou47QV58TnN1wITZRouAc0omw5SNKUub6LCaU7hJXMRQ8k+UJomrtBZF6OGym LCZtzxZbOq0i+rqhJrnL0YBZWrc8f2Pbk41GXXx8flVkus+S7xFiK3lLdITHkV2xSMFA pewQjggTBy9bqB5RLphpiHGLGr7MWAsl4g62Q= Received: by 10.68.27.197 with SMTP id v5mr14079pbg.32.1315968045826; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 19:40:45 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.158.15 with SMTP id g15ls4503735wfe.1.gmail; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 19:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.47.134 with SMTP id d6mr507570pbn.0.1315968044972; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 19:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.47.134 with SMTP id d6mr507569pbn.0.1315968044929; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 19:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sdf.lonestar.org (mx.sdf.org. [192.94.73.19]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j4si4681445pbi.2.2011.09.13.19.40.44 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 13 Sep 2011 19:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) client-ip=192.94.73.19; Received: from gonzales.homelinux.org (root@sverige.freeshell.org [192.94.73.4]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.4/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p8E2eiHS023211 for ; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 02:40:44 GMT Received: from martin by gonzales.homelinux.org with local (Exim 4.75) (envelope-from ) id 1R3fP2-0006tW-22 for lojban@googlegroups.com; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 22:40:44 -0400 Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 22:40:44 -0400 From: Martin Bays To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable Message-ID: <20110914024044.GN28088@gonzales> References: <1315774215.25455.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110912225255.GG28088@gonzales> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="P7Tqkd/m/Jnohiaz" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-PGP-Key: http://mbays.freeshell.org/pubkey.asc X-PGP-KeyId: B5FB2CD6 X-cunselcu'a-valsi: falnu User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Original-Sender: mbays@sdf.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mbays@sdf.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , --P7Tqkd/m/Jnohiaz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Monday, 2011-09-12 at 23:22 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=EDas : > On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 7:52 PM, Martin Bays wrote: > > > > He also thinks we should be careful to separate generic brodas, which > > satisfy a predicate iff brodas tend to satisfy it, from kinds which can > > have entirely different properties (like being widespread). >=20 > Would you also want to separate generic John, which satisfies a > predicate iff his stages tend to satisfy it ( like "... smokes"), from > the John that can have entirely different properties (like "... was > born in London")? >=20 > How is "John smokes and was born in London" different from "chihuahuas > are fiercely loyal and may have originated in Mexico"? >=20 > I don't see a good reason to accept one but not the other. We can analyse the generic sentences like this (as in Chierchia98, p.366): "John smokes" -> for generic relevant situations s, John smokes in s "chihuahuas are fiercely loyal" -> for generic relevant situations s and chihuahuas x, x is fiercely loyal in s. (here 'situation' could mean co-ordinates with respect to possible worlds and time) In both cases, I think we should analyse (both in english and in lojban) the genericity over situations as being located in the predicate. In lojban, we could make it explicit with something like {na'o so'e mu'ei}=20 (although a single cmavo for it would be better... I note that {na'oi} appears to be free) For John, there's nothing left to explain. For chihuahuas, we still have the genericity over them to explain. For English, Chierchia98 talks about "accommodation" and type-casting to get chihuahuas into the generic quantifier. I don't see why we have to copy that. Martin --P7Tqkd/m/Jnohiaz Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk5wFCsACgkQULC7OLX7LNaSDgCg6qXG4h+mKDcOx6rlseT+dOdP NccAoJR6nxDqKabeGv9xikDQo2xnjeuC =9pPb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --P7Tqkd/m/Jnohiaz--