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[98.138.91.72]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id gz12si924091icb.2.2011.09.14.15.38.50; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 15:38:50 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.91.72 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.138.91.72; Received: from [98.138.90.57] by nm10.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Sep 2011 22:38:50 -0000 Received: from [98.138.89.249] by tm10.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Sep 2011 22:38:49 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1041.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Sep 2011 22:38:49 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 882278.35643.bm@omp1041.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 23485 invoked from network); 14 Sep 2011 22:38:49 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: 74oftPMVM1mUZ.XEq8R0gsiKm6h8fK8qWrJPXXkSqiMspSH EjuUd_Z47Ej7_5vNpEEJkD27efdVu6rT5iyGsZmcp.VG0Y1KCKAvCV4VXxwx dn8yYYdJrkpMPjFWf0xjRieTKI6RC.leFcQkHdtXJ3NbXC58A7nv_Jed9Wpx lyoKjrZ8DzcRSf2Z2Fzg2T8uReOiycFAtppEv2BYZNvWbY2Mi7E5Sey4yjlF yfbqc68FmQvfh.6v5kIYz3cTdLjtcEKztuPYfBQ9uFVarrqc1iO.5GgesD5b EpZlTFVbQ84I1I.dYAHn2_A0cxjh4tmM36I_wphN4.yy08lUrllUVzyCzhNL BgsvZelh1.houSuCEJY2NEwH_Eu87iUaPeCNAHzxwD8kyAOLaY2ytPK9mkxI 5Y26x7jJeHll.x4t44en5SIFe4cembJvv2moME6HFxayS_Nt1U5UKrQJi5j5 zB9PmOD6uHk7uwZRdMX9FSv0ka89PISkxI8UyR3lB X-Yahoo-SMTP: xvGyF4GswBCIFKGaxf5wSjlg3RF108g- Received: from [192.168.1.68] (kali9putra@99.92.108.41 with xymcookie) by smtp120-mob.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Sep 2011 15:38:49 -0700 PDT References: <1315774215.25455.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110912225255.GG28088@gonzales> <20110914024044.GN28088@gonzales> In-Reply-To: X-Apple-Yahoo-Original-Message-Folder: AAlojbanery Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 8G4) Message-Id: <40D646A0-9D3B-4BBC-A03D-2A457F0C6AD0@yahoo.com> X-Mailer: iPad Mail (8G4) From: "John E. Clifford" X-Apple-Yahoo-Replied-Msgid: 1_9945363_AHrHjkQAAP//TnEnJg19sxzLfiI Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 18:49:52 -0400 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.91.72 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oh dear, now I am worried. Nothing here sounds as crazy as some of the rem= arks flying around earlier seemed to sound. The only problem left is that = of having either generic chihuahuas or chihuahuakind in addition to or inst= ead of chihuahuas. I think the point about different tests pretty well cove= rs the situation (though I doubt such tests are often performed or could be= normalized). And placing the indicators in the predicate structure seems = right to me (although some approximations seem to turn up among quantifiers= -- but these don't spread out at all). Sent from my iPad On Sep 14, 2011, at 18:13, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 11:40 PM, Martin Bays wrote: >> * Monday, 2011-09-12 at 23:22 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=EDas : >>>=20 >>> How is "John smokes and was born in London" different from "chihuahuas >>> are fiercely loyal and may have originated in Mexico"? >>>=20 >>> I don't see a good reason to accept one but not the other. >>=20 >> We can analyse the generic sentences like this (as in Chierchia98, p.366= ): >>=20 >> "John smokes" -> for generic relevant situations s, John smokes in s >=20 > I would suggest -> for generic relevant situations s, John is smoking in = s >=20 > otherwise you are explaining "John smokes" in terms of "John smokes" agai= n. >=20 > "John is smoking" is something more concrete than "John smokes". You > can for example see whether John is smoking or not in a given > situation, but you can only infer whether he smokes or not. Seeing > just one situation where he is smoking may not be enough to conclude > that he smokes. >=20 >> "chihuahuas are fiercely loyal" -> for generic relevant situations s and >> chihuahuas x, x is fiercely loyal in s. >>=20 >> (here 'situation' could mean co-ordinates with respect to possible >> worlds and time) >=20 > I was thinking of being fiercely loyal as not a situational property > but as something more intrinsic. If you think of being loyal as > something situational, change the example to something intrinsic, say > "chihuahuas are between six and ten inches tall". Then the > corresponding expansion would be something like: >=20 > for generic relevant instances i, chihuahuas are between six and ten > inches tall in instance i. >=20 > In a given instance, there is only one (relevant) > chihuahua-manifestation, just as in a given situation there is only > one (relevant) John-stage. >=20 > "This chihuahua here is between six and ten inches" is again much more > concrete than "chihuahuas are between six and ten inches". You can > only infer the latter one from enough relevant instances of the > former. >=20 > The analogy (and remember it's just an analogy, I'm not saying "John" > and "chihuahuas" are the exact same type of thing!) is between > John/stages-of-John and chihuahuas/manifestations-of-chihuahuas. A > manifestation is itself an individual that can have its stages, but > that's a different further breakdown. >=20 >> In both cases, I think we should analyse (both in english and in lojban) >> the genericity over situations as being located in the predicate. >=20 > But I was comparing the genericity of situations for John with the > genericity of instances for chihuahuas. >=20 >> In lojban, we could make it explicit with something like >> {na'o so'e mu'ei} >> (although a single cmavo for it would be better... I note that {na'oi} >> appears to be free) >>=20 >> For John, there's nothing left to explain. For chihuahuas, we still have >> the genericity over them to explain. For English, Chierchia98 talks >> about "accommodation" and type-casting to get chihuahuas into the >> generic quantifier. I don't see why we have to copy that. >=20 > There's only one genericity to explain if you consider intrinsic > properties of chihuahuas. >=20 > In any case, the point was that John remains John whether we consider > his situational properties or his non-situational properties, and > similarly we don't really need to have two different chihuahuas, the > kind and the generic. It's their properties that can be classified as > kind-properties and generic-properties. >=20 > mu'o mi'e xorxes >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. >=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.