From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDd4oTzBBoEjNd-1Q@googlegroups.com Fri Sep 02 12:41:29 2011 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QzZcD-0002ZD-Cc; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:41:28 -0700 Received: by ywa6 with SMTP id 6sf2926062ywa.16 for ; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:41:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=5ReZNIkuvwsM5aRSaFVF+eaO0mMtRVmTpz7xPGfIYPw=; b=O45XpigQqKtfN99cMajH/c13TTJRBxwA9uxiaJn4xJ+t2X2Z9Iwd71Ud6ziUXBKTJI Rny6NRVwRqcoE2M4+FdS2fApxhUDLUu3H2Y29xGFlz3uCdBzJyJadvPr7HH67t40QFj0 0KkZKXGTe6Kxdmr9mVv7qyui7J93uGfEhYIs0= Received: by 10.90.186.14 with SMTP id j14mr242311agf.0.1314992477132; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:41:17 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.90.122.4 with SMTP id u4ls5295691agc.5.gmail; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.108.231 with SMTP id q67mr6752518yhg.5.1314992476236; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.108.231 with SMTP id q67mr6752516yhg.5.1314992476219; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yi0-f45.google.com (mail-yi0-f45.google.com [209.85.218.45]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q30si85218ybn.2.2011.09.02.12.41.16 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.45 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.218.45; Received: by yih10 with SMTP id 10so2707854yih.4 for ; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.75.136 with SMTP id z8mr7812144yhd.37.1314992476082; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:41:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.236.109.163 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Sep 2011 12:40:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1314991194.52154.YahooMailRC@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20110902145107.GA19571@gonzales> <1314991194.52154.YahooMailRC@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Luke Bergen Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 15:40:56 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: paradox To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.45 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3005151c6b504b04abfa8bd8 --20cf3005151c6b504b04abfa8bd8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A simple solution for this case (I think?) is to just replace the second {ce'u} with {ri} On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 3:19 PM, John E Clifford wrote= : > A place where Lojban deviated from logic, in that the "x" that is > represented by > 'ce'u' is a *bound* variable but without an explicit binder (historically > lambda), so, since there is only one word available for this role, it is > hard to > tell whether the second 'ce'u' is another occurrence of the first (which = is > what > is intended) or a new variable with a new (implicit) binder. Subscriptin= g > the > 'ce'u's would solve this problem, but no one seems to do it (and I am not > even > sure 'ce'u' can take a subscript). I think the second interpretation is t= he > default one, but I couldn't find any discussion of how then to deal with > the > first case. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: ianek > To: lojban > Sent: Fri, September 2, 2011 1:47:56 PM > Subject: [lojban] Re: paradox > > http://dag.github.com/cll/11/4/ > > Quote: > It is also possible to have more than one =93ce'u=94 in a =93ka=94 > abstraction, which transforms it from a property abstraction into a > relationship abstraction. Relationship abstractions =93package up=94 a > complex relationship for future use; such an abstraction can be > translated back into a selbri by placing it in the x2 place of the > selbri =93bridi=94, whose place structure is: > > =93bridi=94: x1 is a predicate relationship with relation > x2 (abstraction) among arguments (sequence/set) x3 > End quote. > > So, {lo ka ce'u ce'u na ckaji} is not right. It should be something > like {lo ka ce'u lo nei na ckaji} unless I'm wrong (not sure whether > {nei} refers to the inner bridi). {vo'a} can't be used here, as it > refers to the x1 of the outer bridi, ie. the full abstraction. {ri} > can't be used also, as it doesn't refer to KOhA. > > This opens a subject which bugged me for a long time: how are > reflexive relationships handled in Lojban? I've seen lujvo with > {sevzi} to handle them, but this doesn't seem right in general, as the > definition of {sevzi} suggests a concious being (unless I'm wrong), so > it couldn't be used to make eg. {sezra'a} mean "x1 is self- > referential". > > mu'o mi'e ianek > > On Sep 2, 4:51 pm, Martin Bays wrote: > > Cute Russel for properties, which translates nicely to lojban: > > > > xu lo ka ce'u ce'u na ckaji ku vo'a ckaji > > > > application_pgp-signature_part > > < 1KViewDownload > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --20cf3005151c6b504b04abfa8bd8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A simple solution for this case (I think?) is to just replace the second {c= e'u} with {ri}

On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at= 3:19 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
A place where Lojban deviated from logic, i= n that the "x" that is represented by
'ce'u' is a *bound* variable but without an explicit binder (hi= storically
lambda), so, since there is only one word available for this role, it is ha= rd to
tell whether the second 'ce'u' is another occurrence of the fir= st (which is what
is intended) or a new variable with a new (implicit) binder. =A0Subscriptin= g the
'ce'u's would solve this problem, but no one seems to do it (an= d I am not even
sure 'ce'u' can take a subscript). I think the second interpret= ation is the
default one, but I couldn't find any discussion of how then to deal wit= h the
first case.



----- Original Message ----
From: ianek <janek37@gmail.com&= gt;
To: lojban <lojban@googlegrou= ps.com>
Sent: Fri, September 2, 2011 1:47:56 PM
Subject: [lojban] Re: paradox

http://dag.gi= thub.com/cll/11/4/

Quote:
It is also possible to have more than one =93ce'u=94 in a =93ka=94
abstraction, which transforms it from a property abstraction into a
relationship abstraction. Relationship abstractions =93package up=94 a
complex relationship for future use; such an abstraction can be
translated back into a selbri by placing it in the x2 place of the
selbri =93bridi=94, whose place structure is:

=A0 =A0 =A0 =93bridi=94: x1 is a predicate relationship with relation
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 x2 (abstraction) among arguments (sequence/set) x3=
End quote.

So, {lo ka ce'u ce'u na ckaji} is not right. It should be something=
like {lo ka ce'u lo nei na ckaji} unless I'm wrong (not sure whethe= r
{nei} refers to the inner bridi). {vo'a} can't be used here, as it<= br> refers to the x1 of the outer bridi, ie. the full abstraction. {ri}
can't be used also, as it doesn't refer to KOhA.

This opens a subject which bugged me for a long time: how are
reflexive relationships handled in Lojban? I've seen lujvo with
{sevzi} to handle them, but this doesn't seem right in general, as the<= br> definition of {sevzi} suggests a concious being (unless I'm wrong), so<= br> it couldn't be used to make eg. {sezra'a} mean "x1 is self- referential".

mu'o mi'e ianek

On Sep 2, 4:51 pm, Martin Bays <mb...@s= df.org> wrote:
> Cute Russel for properties, which translates nicely to lojban:
>
> xu lo ka ce'u ce'u na ckaji ku vo'a ckaji
>
> =A0application_pgp-signature_part
> < 1KViewDownload

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