From lojban+bncCOTEtqyUDhC354TzBBoEV24nIg@googlegroups.com Fri Sep 02 12:51:29 2011 Received: from mail-pz0-f56.google.com ([209.85.210.56]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QzZlu-0002jM-N2; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:51:29 -0700 Received: by pzk33 with SMTP id 33sf6823714pzk.1 for ; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:51:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:x-pgp-key :x-pgp-keyid:x-cunselcu'a-valsi:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=C3RpgFPwcpmAEJV3cp9tE9fRhwQ3J+nHAbE5HI/vi68=; b=hVq7PfrO2cc4RguTWhdBfotsMN2rQdW0vZv/HdmnGdPNi4CcLsT5YcL8LzTBdKX+tO jIaCD7cTC7Y8YJP/NN3RfYk82gmduCLz02SlEE1Ram/qJ0/YO3KUCHX0dLDq0SDN7F8v V1Ogx4948namYiuLU+QAz+6k+dMVqbxjNaFkc= Received: by 10.68.43.136 with SMTP id w8mr504597pbl.76.1314993079172; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:51:19 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.33.194 with SMTP id t2ls908818pbi.0.gmail; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:51:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.44.169 with SMTP id f9mr891754pbm.8.1314993078550; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:51:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.44.169 with SMTP id f9mr891753pbm.8.1314993078530; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:51:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sdf.lonestar.org (mx.sdf.org. [192.94.73.19]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j4si215510pbi.2.2011.09.02.12.51.18 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:51:18 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) client-ip=192.94.73.19; Received: from gonzales.homelinux.org (root@sverige.freeshell.org [192.94.73.4]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.4/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p82JpH9A026927 for ; Fri, 2 Sep 2011 19:51:18 GMT Received: from martin by gonzales.homelinux.org with local (Exim 4.75) (envelope-from ) id 1QzZll-000568-Am for lojban@googlegroups.com; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 15:51:17 -0400 Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 15:51:17 -0400 From: Martin Bays To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: paradox Message-ID: <20110902195117.GA5921@gonzales> References: <20110902145107.GA19571@gonzales> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="tThc/1wpZn/ma/RB" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-PGP-Key: http://mbays.freeshell.org/pubkey.asc X-PGP-KeyId: B5FB2CD6 X-cunselcu'a-valsi: gradu User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Original-Sender: mbays@sdf.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mbays@sdf.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , --tThc/1wpZn/ma/RB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Friday, 2011-09-02 at 11:47 -0700 - ianek : > On Sep 2, 4:51=C2=A0pm, Martin Bays wrote: > > Cute Russel for properties, which translates nicely to lojban: > > > > xu lo ka ce'u ce'u na ckaji ku vo'a ckaji > > > http://dag.github.com/cll/11/4/ >=20 > Quote: > It is also possible to have more than one =E2=80=9Cce'u=E2=80=9D in a =E2= =80=9Cka=E2=80=9D > abstraction, which transforms it from a property abstraction into a > relationship abstraction. Relationship abstractions =E2=80=9Cpackage up= =E2=80=9D a > complex relationship for future use; such an abstraction can be > translated back into a selbri by placing it in the x2 place of the > selbri =E2=80=9Cbridi=E2=80=9D, whose place structure is: >=20 > =E2=80=9Cbridi=E2=80=9D: x1 is a predicate relationship with relat= ion > x2 (abstraction) among arguments (sequence/set) x3 > End quote. >=20 > So, {lo ka ce'u ce'u na ckaji} is not right. Good catch. > It should be something > like {lo ka ce'u lo nei na ckaji} unless I'm wrong (not sure whether > {nei} refers to the inner bridi). {vo'a} can't be used here, as it > refers to the x1 of the outer bridi, ie. the full abstraction. {ri} > can't be used also, as it doesn't refer to KOhA. I don't see why {ri} shouldn't work. CLL only says "Certain sumti are ignored by "ri"; specifically, most of the other cmavo of KOhA, [...]" -- http://dag.github.com/cll/7/6/=20 {ce'u} could reasonably be one of the exceptions. Otherwise, I guess I'd use {goi ko'a}, or use {ce'u xi pa} for both. > This opens a subject which bugged me for a long time: how are > reflexive relationships handled in Lojban? I've seen lujvo with > {sevzi} to handle them, but this doesn't seem right in general, as the > definition of {sevzi} suggests a concious being (unless I'm wrong), so > it couldn't be used to make eg. {sezra'a} mean "x1 is self- > referential". How about {du} instead of {sevzi} for reflexives? So {dubra'a} for "x1 pertains to x2=3Dx1". Martin --tThc/1wpZn/ma/RB Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk5hM7UACgkQULC7OLX7LNZBZwCgvjz3K48IqCW7CzCfcJoPS2KH 9sQAoIx+l71mRe2/CpL9pEELDv6Hyt0k =4AjK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --tThc/1wpZn/ma/RB--