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[98.138.90.253]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id gz12si1954359icb.2.2011.09.16.09.18.41; Fri, 16 Sep 2011 09:18:41 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.90.253 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.138.90.253; Received: from [98.138.90.48] by nm4.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Sep 2011 16:18:41 -0000 Received: from [98.138.88.238] by tm1.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Sep 2011 16:18:41 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1038.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Sep 2011 16:18:41 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 163705.65439.bm@omp1038.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 48936 invoked from network); 16 Sep 2011 16:18:41 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: A3Wa5M4VM1meFlrpH5EgNI6YXjjzp2h53lfr5y_vdrAjqWd Hgb__0WZ9lwCRMVSXQ8wxXkZEuI2qqhA5G77qI0i1obif1q1PHOR31.6iR_X oNQK6ZGmQ9fdBusKA1QJz4M98APCUqyOtmDtp6E79Kci2nTjEkFrXRXdOfXT SzV2kNpce9B_sTBtf369.EUuyOAwC9G85KH51ji4eL0qMRtNxANAYdV03g_3 0wfvZUvcSCo.RPQaPtQUtuO0mCerx4tvt2_qSQJZmATg_ZPDYYykkSw9Nocq itsPnSh_3bOhc1d8fMjlG_UfPXOxPSirV0Nl2BbZ3QoncyGv48s2GgFacdKP ksp24OiuSBI7k0r1MhvRtbbIugDjr7hc.Ps4kNJeUNa.9_vIBg1nppbACry6 CnSzBwjieUT5L X-Yahoo-SMTP: xvGyF4GswBCIFKGaxf5wSjlg3RF108g- Received: from [192.168.1.68] (kali9putra@99.92.108.41 with xymcookie) by smtp107-mob.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Sep 2011 09:18:40 -0700 PDT References: <1315774215.25455.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110912225255.GG28088@gonzales> <20110914024044.GN28088@gonzales> <20110916001902.GE7274@gonzales> In-Reply-To: <20110916001902.GE7274@gonzales> X-Apple-Yahoo-Original-Message-Folder: AAlojbanery Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 8G4) Message-Id: <82ED029F-762F-493F-8EAB-C60B23DE3FE7@yahoo.com> X-Mailer: iPad Mail (8G4) From: "John E. Clifford" X-Apple-Yahoo-Replied-Msgid: 1_9961547_AHXHjkQAAWMJTnKV/Ajdd0w9bVw Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 12:29:50 -0400 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.90.253 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All this talk about generic properties and situations and quantifiers needs= some unpacking for me. I assume something subjunctive (and thus subjectiv= e) is going on here, but it is not clear what. What does this have to do w= ith chihuahuas or John? Sent from my iPad On Sep 15, 2011, at 20:19, Martin Bays wrote: > * Wednesday, 2011-09-14 at 19:13 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=EDas : >=20 >> On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 11:40 PM, Martin Bays wrote: >>> * Monday, 2011-09-12 at 23:22 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=EDas : >>>>=20 >>>> How is "John smokes and was born in London" different from "chihuahuas >>>> are fiercely loyal and may have originated in Mexico"? >>>>=20 >>>> I don't see a good reason to accept one but not the other. >>>=20 >>> We can analyse the generic sentences like this (as in Chierchia98, p.36= 6): >>>=20 >>> "John smokes" -> for generic relevant situations s, John smokes in s >>=20 >> I would suggest -> for generic relevant situations s, John is smoking in= s >>=20 >> otherwise you are explaining "John smokes" in terms of "John smokes" aga= in. >=20 > Quite right. >=20 >> There's only one genericity to explain if you consider intrinsic >> properties of chihuahuas. >>=20 >> In any case, the point was that John remains John whether we consider >> his situational properties or his non-situational properties, and >> similarly we don't really need to have two different chihuahuas, the >> kind and the generic. It's their properties that can be classified as >> kind-properties and generic-properties. >=20 > Fine. I agree that there's an analogy. But since the generic quantifier > is over quite different things (situations vs instances*), it seems > entirely coherent to deal with them in different ways. >=20 > Martin >=20 > *(allowing that it makes sense to quantify over instances without > touching situations (i.e. "in intension")... which it seems formally > would mean introducing constants for every chihuahua... but I'm happy to > ignore that as a technicality) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.