From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRC7mdnzBBoEDCZGog@googlegroups.com Sun Sep 18 12:55:51 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1R5NSt-000824-T7; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 12:55:51 -0700 Received: by fxg17 with SMTP id 17sf3468880fxg.16 for ; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 12:55:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=jsbtAz81Uc8Pf7Lf1wTK+/3AxCeLY6jYkaFpA934AZQ=; b=TBKKdLY1GY7fziCLAdtvHJ7qbLW/LCEllS/pIfS/BX2NU/EZ8is+fyuv62V8QZJpPf t661vOEHOoyU7CQzIU1c/tPB56PofIZXrAnxQXXGYqqaYEhsZ/XwabbP21gJh2CaxT/q YS6Pgr2QbA+bGAl2hdVwLLSkNwkz+wqdG5+CE= Received: by 10.223.5.16 with SMTP id 16mr444222fat.25.1316375739627; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 12:55:39 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.148.193 with SMTP id q1ls1531888bkv.3.gmail; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 12:55:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.128.204 with SMTP id l12mr370171bks.1.1316375737991; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 12:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.128.204 with SMTP id l12mr370170bks.1.1316375737971; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 12:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f50.google.com (mail-fx0-f50.google.com [209.85.161.50]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t14si1436489fac.1.2011.09.18.12.55.37 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 18 Sep 2011 12:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.50 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.50; Received: by fxh10 with SMTP id 10so3417703fxh.9 for ; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 12:55:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.64.66 with SMTP id d2mr3657359fai.116.1316375737819; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 12:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.152.39.35 with HTTP; Sun, 18 Sep 2011 12:55:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20110918172927.GA4310@gonzales> References: <1315774215.25455.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110912225255.GG28088@gonzales> <1315882379.97949.YahooMailRC@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110914041335.GO28088@gonzales> <55EFAEEE-10A9-4002-951E-7BD949DC29F7@yahoo.com> <20110914232007.GC6492@gonzales> <1316055853.22283.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110916000632.GD7274@gonzales> <20110918172927.GA4310@gonzales> Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 16:55:37 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.50 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Sep 18, 2011 at 2:29 PM, Martin Bays wrote: > > Let me expand on that slightly. To reiterate and amend, I'm suggesting > that we understand {zo'e} as follows: > * All omitted numbered places are filled with {zo'e} > * By a "zo'e expression" I mean an instance of {zo'e} along with any > =A0 =A0attached relative clauses, e.g. {zo'e noi broda}. > * Let us assume the Nirvana Conjecture: > =A0 =A0When interpreting lojban, other rules reduce to the problem of > =A0 =A0determining the truth value in a given possible world of a bridi > =A0 =A0whose sumti are all either elements of the universe or are {zo'e} > =A0 =A0expressions (or are anaphora to the latter, but let's ignore that)= . > =A0 =A0So reordering, we have selbri(c_1,...,c_n,zo'e_1,...,zo'e_m). > * Interpret this as > =A0 =A0\exists (x_1,...,x_m) \in C. (selbri(c_1,...,c_n,x_1,...,x_m)) > * C here is a glorked subset of the mth cartesian power of the universe; > =A0 =A0it depends on the current context, in particular on any quantified > =A0 =A0variables the current formula is in the scope of. > * Importantly, C is required to be such that any (x_1,...,x_m)\in > =A0 =A0C satisfy all relative clauses in the zo'e expressions. > * Note that {noi} and {poi} have the same effect for existential > =A0 =A0quantifiers, so {zo'e noi} is the same as {zo'e poi}. > * Handling plurals: take our universe to contain pluralities as well as > =A0 =A0atoms, as discussed elsewhere and as presented nicely in > =A0 =A0Chierchia98 section 2.1. > * Handling kinds: also handled, if handled we want them to be, just by > =A0 =A0having them in our universe, as in beloved Chierchia98. I'm not sure I see the point of having zo'e be a quantification over the members of C, instead of a direct reference to those very same members. What do you gain with the intermediate set C? Would you also want to say that "ta" is a close-scope quantification over a set T whose members are glorked from context in much the same way as we glork the referents of "ta" in an explanation that doesn't involve quantification? As to the equivalence of noi and poi: A: xu do nelci ta B1: mi nelci zo'e poi zunle B2: mi nelci zo'e noi zunle Assuming B1 and B2 mean the same, then "zo'e" could have different referents in each answer (or your C could have different members). In B1, "zo'e" would have the same referents as "ta", (or C would have the referents of "ta" as its members) and "poi" will select from those the ones on the left. In B2, the referents of "zo'e" would have to be already restricted to those on the left presumably by the context, so that all of its referents end up satisfying "zunle". I find B1 more natural, and I would say B2 is appropriate only if "ta" already pointed to only things on the left. > But sadly this doesn't seem to handle e.g. > {ca lo nicte lo cinfo cu kalte lo cidja}, which should be something like > Gen (w, n:nicte_w, cin:cinfo_w) ( cabna_w(n) -> > =A0 =A0\exists cid:cidja_w(cid, cin). kalte_w(cin, cid) ) > > "For generic (contextually relevant) worlds, nights and lions, with the > world cotemporaneous with the night, the lion hunts for something which > is food to it." > > I don't see how any of the current understandings of {lo} could get that > existential scoped within that generic... > > doi xorxes, if you're still listening: how do you get the right meaning > there? I have a domain of discourse with three (relevant) members: {Nights, Lions, Food}, and a simple three argument predicate: "at x1, x2 hunts for x3". The order in which the three constant arguments are presented is irrelevant (as long as they are properly tagged). All further explanations in terms of particular instances of Nights, Lions or Food are beyond this level of abstraction. In this sentence, all we are told is the answers to "when do lions hunt for food?", "who hunts for food at night?", "what do lions hunt for at night?", "what do lions do to food at night?". We are not told anything about particular nights, particular lions, or particular instances of food. (That's assuming all "ca" does is create a new predicate with an additional argument, which is the usual Lojban explanation of tags. This can in fact be expanded a bit more: ca ko'a ko'e broda ko'i -> ko'a se cabna lo nu ko'e broda ko'i, but I don't think this affects the present issue, in the expansion we are just showing how to create a three-place predicate out of the two two-place predicates.) > [Chierchia98]: Chierchia, "Reference to kinds across languages", 1998, Na= tural > =A0 =A0Language Semantics Volume 6 Number 4... of which a preprint was > =A0 =A0easily available the other day, but seems to have now been taken > =A0 =A0down, which really isn't funny. I'll mail you and any lojbanist wh= o > =A0 =A0asks a copy of the preprint. I'd like one please. I seem to recall reading it some years ago, but I can only find it behind paywalls now. ki'e mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. 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