From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDo_t7zBBoErhEu3Q@googlegroups.com Mon Sep 19 15:17:23 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1R5m9Q-0003lD-Oa; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:17:22 -0700 Received: by fxg17 with SMTP id 17sf4738018fxg.16 for ; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:17:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=cdxbDFm6TdAMza7hOnJg8S+B0GGJxmywq4hnOlJMEN0=; b=4LyRUY7oNpgyBXlenn8G6ioKonJ4hic6T9pwGRPiaWpv1shCgWSs1YcWsf+V7m2XwJ olggbvGsJqWUCh8ucdmICiiOrLubUDna2Mfhgm3nB4wc/bgQ02FQ1hB2MTzLs0ddjlcR aEqdRBeG+cssg67V8G0o4IRuxPp5cTG4hqvg0= Received: by 10.223.46.76 with SMTP id i12mr11778faf.32.1316470632058; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:17:12 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.148.152 with SMTP id p24ls8000801bkv.0.gmail; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.128.141 with SMTP id k13mr12861bks.2.1316470630816; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.128.141 with SMTP id k13mr12860bks.2.1316470630795; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f51.google.com (mail-fx0-f51.google.com [209.85.161.51]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a4si3182883fad.3.2011.09.19.15.17.10 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.51 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.51; Received: by fxe22 with SMTP id 22so4643072fxe.38 for ; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:17:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.49.139 with SMTP id v11mr98646faf.21.1316470630596; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.152.39.35 with HTTP; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:17:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20110919013653.GC6878@gonzales> References: <20110914041335.GO28088@gonzales> <55EFAEEE-10A9-4002-951E-7BD949DC29F7@yahoo.com> <20110914232007.GC6492@gonzales> <1316055853.22283.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110916000632.GD7274@gonzales> <20110918172927.GA4310@gonzales> <20110918213323.GB6878@gonzales> <20110919013653.GC6878@gonzales> Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 19:17:10 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.51 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sun, Sep 18, 2011 at 10:36 PM, Martin Bays wrote: > > Would you accept that "Lions are ruining my garden" is a reasonable > possible translation of {lo cinfo cu ca daspo lo mi purdi}? Yes. > Would you agree with Chierchia (Ch98 p.364) that "Lions are ruining my > garden" means that there exist some lions which are ruining my garden? Only in the sense that "I am in my garden" means that there exists some stage of me that is now in my garden. So yes, but not really. It is a posible explanation of the meaning, but in terms of things that were never mentioned. When I say "lions are ruining my garden" I don't really mean to bring individual lion manifestations into the picture, just as when I say "I am in my garden" I don't mean to bring stages of me into the picture. > If so - that's the kind of existential quantification which we don't see > with {mi} or {ti}. {lo cinfo cu ca na daspa lo mi purdi} has to have as > as a meaning that no lions are destroying my garden. No, it doesn't have to bring individual lions into the picture. It just says that if my garden is being ruined, it must be by something other than lions, or that if lions are ruining something, it must be something other than my garden, or if lions are doing something to my garden, it must be something other than ruining it, and so on. You may infer from it that no lion is ruining my garden, but that's not what it means. > Could it be that our only point of disagreement here is that you'd > prefer to leave {lo cinfo} as a Kind, and have a later stage of > processing do the conversion to (in this case) an existential, while I'm > suggesting we skip the Kind stage? I don't want to introduce at any point an existential claim about individual lions. (If you do, you must then make exceptions for intensional contexts.) > Actually that can't quite be the only point of disagreement, as I'd want > an existential or generic reading of {lo} to be allowed in cases when > there's also a pure-Kind reading - e.g. "I don't like lions" vs > "I don't like some lions" vs "I don't like generic lions", all meaning > quite different things; if {lo cinfo} in {mi na nelci lo cinfo} returned > a Kind, it seems we'd have no way of accessing the latter two meanings, > since the first would take priority. Yes, "I don't like lions" takes priority. It could also mean "I don't like the lions" in a context where we already have some individual lions in the domain of discourse. > Let me make that a question: do you consider "there are some lions such > that I don't like them" to be an interpretation of {mi na nelci lo > cinfo}? If so, how do you obtain it? That would have to be "su'o da poi cinfo zo'u mi na nelci da" or equivalently "mi na nelci ro cinfo" or "mi nelci me'i cinfo" or "mi nelci su'o cinfo na ku" or "su'o cinfo na se nelci mi". mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.