From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCqjOTzBBoEqhRv1A@googlegroups.com Tue Sep 20 14:31:32 2011 Received: from mail-gw0-f56.google.com ([74.125.83.56]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1R67uc-0006Ob-02; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:31:32 -0700 Received: by gwj15 with SMTP id 15sf1313770gwj.1 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:31:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:message-id:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=rnGBjk+LolVOUn0ygKcNO9sYDP9nMfEIQXgb7GHxJpc=; b=f3wmpgAcn7uPxPqHZfz3i4Cq1RIK6D72r0dEpSqLbxOsFYADddteFF+azRQnrfz2px suoA2MnZ49Ksmb+JUAgU7aAG8eVESUz4S4S6nRnmKDyvNTFwLThrSIzSUiIYpJpE71ez W5W97U/MVMriZ6hTWiZmW/qvpYc7ug6CmsxSc= Received: by 10.146.147.18 with SMTP id u18mr1016yad.2.1316554282356; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:31:22 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.90.67.18 with SMTP id p18ls4180497aga.2.gmail; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:31:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.185.4 with SMTP id t4mr15263yhm.3.1316554278780; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.185.4 with SMTP id t4mr15125yhm.3.1316554277459; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm23-vm1.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm23-vm1.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com. [66.94.236.142]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id u39si668155ybe.3.2011.09.20.14.31.17; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.142 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.236.142; Received: from [66.94.237.192] by nm23.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Sep 2011 21:31:17 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.98] by tm3.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Sep 2011 21:31:17 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1003.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Sep 2011 21:31:17 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-5 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 34872.13605.bm@omp1003.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 12440 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Sep 2011 21:31:16 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: e_0JxpUVM1nZ_FX2I.MngSROT.byOExPZ6wTcqO7ipL2ugf grXUAotGZILEVRUgEHJ2BGHImN7rUixct0E7eyi508pazL870.SrOHtP1U8h P7jnkN_rPqfVz1hvLHjSBjlg0DT.FDEJu77iSJP4MeQ0ylj6IhCGxWFd0B2P OifS_uVMc.xxSGHr7h6fFD1ahKTGMODp3KKEt4TZlWtcG356dcEb5nldo0Cp vuKvcDvYIp6neDrFTTWDKUkYdtNH265YFUBNDo.5paIPC_Sn0JL3aIXChmML Ani1O84Vf6ranR41W48lwmMyBGfMwduhSYAZ9j6PPq3H52hUqhb8Yr45wrxv mjFat7Xjlu.I1obUhfJ6bU7mYSxZoQEPC6oJV.KMiR4KiBJVm_20zJ36t9dA H9feUSRg1wgrKeziAyp96TUXeSgGEOQeJluYlkPBq1Ni9fiabNLcDIZif3Hn tpOWXSv0X5aIu8m0GrS9JvJYAO6lqPBtMxcM.SpqbyXDOa.ZFDfhJo8EhTcq 00aM7Ug89A2LrcQ-- Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:31:16 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/574 YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.315625 References: <201109200127.39738.phma@phma.optus.nu> Message-ID: <1316554276.80945.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:31:16 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Should we have another mailing list for abstruse discussions? To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.142 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 a, b, c, d (see, you have only to ask and there is no penalty for asking). By definition, every thing in Lojban comes in discrete packets, either their natural bodies, for things that are naturally discrete, or in unspecified quantities, for things like water and air and flour (masses), This is a characteristic of Standard Average European languages of which Lojban is an epitome (the other is that things and properties are clearly distinct). The virtue of this issue is that things can be counted directly, whereas, if there were masses, we would have to interpose some standard measure and then count how many of those full were involved. But it is hard to get rid of discrete things in favor of masses (much more so than to discretize masses, as noted) so Lojban has struggled with this for most of its history, with some promising -- but hardly definitive -- results in the last few years. These results involve the use of L-set, or, more accurately, just dealing with bunches of things, with very fluid boundaries within and between bunches. You don't need to know what L-sets are, you just need to be able to manipulate linguistic expressions that refer to them (though knowing a bit may help with that). e. Yes, lots of things, come help us clear them up. ----- Original Message ---- From: Remo Dentato To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, September 20, 2011 2:51:09 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Should we have another mailing list for abstruse discussions? On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 8:47 PM, djandus wrote: > So, two main issues. Messy threads: > 2) could send the wrong message to new Lojbanists Can I elaborate on that? And John sorry if I pick an example from one of your emails, it's just the last one in the thread at the moment. On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 6:30 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > No classifiers because Lojban (in keeping with its SAE status) is rigorously > count. In fact, one ongoing problem in Lojban has been how to get mass terms >in > where they are "necessary" (so much, again for S-WH). L-sets help a bit. It's > not clear that kinds do. Imagine that I am a new Lojbanist and being, as I am, ignorant of linguistics, I understand from what you write that: A) Lojban has no classifiers! (whatever they are) because has a SAE status (?? B) Lojban is count!!! (whatever it means) C) Lojban has a problem in expressing "masses" even where they are necessary!! D) I need to know what L-sets are before being able to use masses in Lojban E) Something is not clear about Lojban. Frankly, this would be more than enough to make me turn away and spread words that Lojban is impossible to use. I'm sure it's my fault and I can't understand those high level concept but at the same time, I'm sure that I *can* use Lojban (poorly, maybe, but I'll learn eventually) and I'm sure that there's a way to say anything that i want to say (and maybe more). It may be too little and it also may be not really effective, but I'm working hard to create things that could attract new people to lojban (children books, comics, cheat sheets) as I think we lack the critical mass we need. I'm really worried about the impact of mixing extremely high level discussions with more mundane ones as, for me, they might be misinterpreted as a sign that Lojban is a a poorly designed language. remod -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.