From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhC0lOTzBBoEmPJQDg@googlegroups.com Tue Sep 20 14:48:42 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1R68BC-0006nK-CZ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:48:41 -0700 Received: by mail-fx0-f61.google.com with SMTP id 17sf1045416fxg.16 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:48:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=zdqsbchHuSH9EbKMgFTax+HO0ZNFFqtxZi3+O2wwJaA=; b=NvuA5V1tgKDLsvkBzpubXf7JgiOsRiiL9F6nbeEmpGtFtEYaubtv0RhQmKTBwMwUT6 +v4Q2llP1FL5R5IehS5x8cvM243EpHIJwkSKW2KC5hMEEdN9TlY8DiQ+Mai9ywJ7riC1 n8pi8/+02EYMwwDCUJQFxcvMCXmVks1UpHk8w= Received: by 10.223.24.6 with SMTP id t6mr515567fab.4.1316555316179; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:48:36 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.148.152 with SMTP id p24ls1295511bkv.0.gmail; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.135.146 with SMTP id n18mr475bkt.17.1316555315260; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.135.146 with SMTP id n18mr474bkt.17.1316555315223; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f45.google.com (mail-fx0-f45.google.com [209.85.161.45]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f27si414172faf.2.2011.09.20.14.48.35 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.45 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.45; Received: by mail-fx0-f45.google.com with SMTP id 13so1045819fxh.4 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:48:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.62.8 with SMTP id v8mr2040418fah.43.1316555314989; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.152.41.68 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:48:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1316554821.5056.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <90e6ba6e8ea2b4b5d104ad5c4012@google.com> <94BEFB7E-3B68-4F1A-BAE4-55232754DB45@yahoo.com> <1316552990.27459.YahooMailRC@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1316554821.5056.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:48:34 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Should we have another mailing list for abstruse discussions? From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.45 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015173ffa18e08aac04ad666bf0 --0015173ffa18e08aac04ad666bf0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 3:40 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > Good! Then you realize the importance of having the meaning of all > expressions of Lojban as clearly laid out in formal terms as possible, so > that computers (as of now at least, can understand). So you must recognize > that the problems with {zo'e} are important, since that word preserves the > place structure intact, rather than flittering away into mush when it is not > used completely. > Seeing as I intentionally haven't paid attention, at all, to that thread, I don't even know what "problems" {zo'e} has. So, I'm going to say, no, I don't re3cognixe that they are important. What I do recognize is that /I/, personally, don't care. I'm not a linguist. To me {zo'e} means, basically, "context-determined". That is, whatever it is within the context of the jufra, or possibly the discussion, that would sensibly fit in the place {zo'e} is being used (explicitly or implicitly), is what what {zo'e} means in that place. I would not be surprised if a computer of today could not understand that, but I do not think it is because {zo'e} is ill-defined, I think it is because computers don't understand context, or even the concept thereof. > I agree about Klingon, but I think tp is cute (subjective, as you say). > And, of course, I like your definition of {lo broda}. > It's not /my/ definition. It's /the/ definition. > ------------------------------ > *From:* Jonathan Jones > *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Tue, September 20, 2011 4:30:17 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Should we have another mailing list for abstruse > discussions? > > My attraction to Lojban is the unambiguous-ness of it's pronunciation, that > it is possible to be as specific or as clear as you want, and the place > structure system it has due to being based on predicate logic. Oh yes, and > that stated goal of being able to talk to computers and have them /actually > understand you/. > > I don't take up Klingon because I'm not a Trekkie. While I do like the Star > Trek franchise, I'm not enough of a fan to devote time to learn a language > spoken by a fictitious race of war-mongers. /IF/ I were going to learn the > language of a star Trek species, I'd learn Vulcan. The only Klingon I ever > liked was Torres on Voyager, and she was milato. > > I don't take up toki pona because it's ugly. I realize that's a subjective > argument, but meh. I'm allowed. > > {lo broda} means "one or more things which actually fit into the x1 slot of > the predicate {broda}". > > On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 3:09 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > >> Well, in keeping with the saying, what is the attraction of Lojban to >> you? Why not take up Klingon, which has a definite culture and definitive >> answers to your haja questions (haja form the pluperfect subjunctive?, a >> question liable to get more muddy than xorlo in Lojban)? Or toki pona, that >> takes about a day to learn enough to carry on conversations on a range of >> things and contribute to the list? And, while most of your contributions >> have been about haja questions or general learning aids (the best app for >> your smartphone, say), you have taken part in earlier rounds of the eternal >> xorlo issue so, are not completely uninterested nor ignorant. So, what do >> you think {lo broda} means? >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Jonathan Jones >> *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com >> *Sent:* Tue, September 20, 2011 2:58:45 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Should we have another mailing list for abstruse >> discussions? >> >> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 8:04 AM, John E. Clifford wrote: >> >>> Well, as the old saying (I've been saying it for thirty some years) goes, >>> "If you want to have a logical language, you have to put up with a little >>> logic". In the present case, since it concerns {zo'e}, the most common >>> unwritten word in Lojban, and thus {lo}, the most common written word >>> (possibly excluding {I} and { cu}), it would seem to be worthy of general >>> attention. The demands of the discussion are not great (yes, Montague's >>> course was graduate level, but Partee's was just Senior level and we don't >>> need the whole pile here). So gird up and learn a little about possible >>> worlds and mappings and intensionality. Jboske would be a nice site, but,as >>> noted, no one goes there and there is no handy connection to it from the >>> general site. >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >> >> I don't even know what the TITLE means. Oh, I know I could probably look >> it up and find out, sure. But, here's the thing- I don't care. I am not a >> linguist or logician. I have no interest whatsoever IN understanding. >> Figuring out how the language works isn't my job. That job belongs to the >> linguists and logicians. They figure out how a word works, then they tell >> us, in layman's terms, once they've figured it out. The whole zo'e thing >> going on is exactly that- something they are figuring out. >> >> I've got enough stuff on my "to learn" plate being in college without >> putting the learning of an entirely new discipline on there too- especially >> one that I'm not interested in anyway. If I don't /need/ to learn it, and I >> don't /want/ to learn it, I'm not going to learn it. Simple as that. Get >> back to me when you figure out what zo'e means. >> >> >> >>> >>> On Sep 20, 2011, at 5:40, rdentato@gmail.com wrote: >>> >>> On , Arnt Richard Johansen wrote: >>> > There is jboske@yahoogroups.com, but that one hasn't been posted to >>> since 2007. >>> >>> Great! Let's ask those that want to conduct such in-depth discussions to >>> move there! >>> >>> remod >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0015173ffa18e08aac04ad666bf0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 3:40 PM, John E Clifford= <kali9putra@y= ahoo.com> wrote:
Good!=A0 Then you realize the importance of having the meaning of = all expressions of Lojban as clearly laid out in formal terms as possible, = so that computers (as of now at least, can understand).=A0 So you must reco= gnize that the problems with {zo'e} are important, since that word pres= erves the place structure intact, rather than flittering away into mush whe= n it is not used completely.

Seeing as I intentionally haven't paid atte= ntion, at all, to that thread, I don't even know what "problems&qu= ot; {zo'e} has. So, I'm going to say, no, I don't re3cognixe th= at they are important. What I do recognize is that /I/, personally, don'= ;t care. I'm not a linguist. To me {zo'e} means, basically, "c= ontext-determined". That is, whatever it is within the context of the = jufra, or possibly the discussion, that would sensibly fit in the place {zo= 'e} is being used (explicitly or implicitly), is what what {zo'e} m= eans in that place. I would not be surprised if a computer of today could n= ot understand that, but I do not think it is because {zo'e} is ill-defi= ned, I think it is because computers don't understand context, or even = the concept thereof.
=A0
I agree about Klingon, but I think tp is cute (subjective, as you say).=A0 = And, of course, I like your definition of {lo broda}.

It's not /my/ definition. It's /the/ definition. =A0
From: Jonathan Jones = <eyeonus@gmail.co= m>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
<= b>Sent: Tue, September 20, 2011= 4:30:17 PM

Subjec= t: Re: [lojban] Should we have another mailing list for abstruse= discussions?

My attraction to Lojban is the unambiguous-ness of it's pronunciation,= =20 that it is possible to be as specific or as clear as you want, and the=20 place structure system it has due to being based on predicate logic. Oh yes= , and that stated goal of being able to talk to computers and have them /ac= tually understand you/.

I don't take up Klingon because I'm not a Trekkie. While I do like = the=20 Star Trek franchise, I'm not enough of a fan to devote time to learn a= =20 language spoken by a fictitious race of war-mongers. /IF/ I were going=20 to learn the language of a star Trek species, I'd learn Vulcan. The onl= y Klingon I ever liked was Torres on Voyager, and she was milato.

I don't take up toki pona because it's ugly. I realize that's a= subjective argument, but meh. I'm allowed.

{lo broda} means "one or more things which actually fit into the x1 sl= ot of the predicate {broda}".

On Tue= , Sep 20, 2011 at 3:09 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra= @yahoo.com> wrote:
Well, in keeping with the saying= , what is the attraction of Lojban to you?=A0 Why not take up Klingon, whic= h has a definite culture and definitive answers to your haja questions (haj= a form the pluperfect subjunctive?, a question liable to get more muddy tha= n xorlo in Lojban)?=A0 Or toki pona, that takes about a day to learn enough= to carry on conversations on a range of things and contribute to the list?= And, while most of your contributions have been about haja questions or ge= neral learning aids (the best app for your smartphone, say), you have taken= part in earlier rounds of the eternal xorlo issue so, are not completely u= ninterested nor ignorant.=A0 So, what do you think {lo broda} means?


From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonu= s@gmail.com>
To: <= a rel=3D"nofollow" href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank= ">lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, September 20, 201= 1 2:58:45 PM
Subject: Re:= [lojban] Should we have another mailing list for abstruse discussions?

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 8:04 AM, John E. Cliffor= d <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
Well, as the old saying (I've been saying it for thirty some = years) goes, "If you want to have a logical language, you have to put = up with a little logic". =A0In the present case, since it concerns {zo= 'e}, the most common unwritten word in Lojban, and thus {lo}, the most = common written word (possibly excluding {I} and { cu}), it would seem to be= worthy of general attention. =A0The demands of the discussion are not grea= t (yes, Montague's course was graduate level, but Partee's was just= Senior level and we don't need the whole pile here). =A0So gird up and= learn a little about possible worlds and mappings and intensionality. =A0J= boske would be a nice site, but,as noted, no one goes there and there is no= handy connection to it from the general site.

Sent from my iPad

I don't eve= n know what the TITLE means. Oh, I know I could probably look it up and fin= d out, sure. But, here's the thing- I don't care. I am not a lingui= st or logician. I have no interest whatsoever IN understanding. Figuring ou= t how the language works isn't my job. That job belongs to the linguist= s and logicians. They figure out how a word works, then they tell us, in la= yman's terms, once they've figured it out. The whole zo'e thing= going on is exactly that- something they are figuring out.

I've got enough stuff on my "to learn" plate being in col= lege without putting the learning of an entirely new discipline on there to= o- especially one that I'm not interested in anyway. If I don't /ne= ed/ to learn it, and I don't /want/ to learn it, I'm not going to l= earn it. Simple as that. Get back to me when you figure out what zo'e m= eans.

=A0
=

On Sep 20, 2011, at 5:40, rdentato@gmail.com wro= te:

On , Arnt Richard Johan= sen <a= rj@nvg.org> wrote:
> There is jboske@yahoogroups.com, bu= t that one hasn't been posted to since 2007.

Great! Let's ask those that want to conduct such in-depth discussio= ns to move there!

remod

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

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To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

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