Well, that it is *the* definition seems to be what is in dispu= te, after a fashion. The same is true for {zo'e}, which, at the very = least needs some tightening up.

From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, September 20, 2011 4= :48:34 PM
Subject: Re: = [lojban] Should we have another mailing list for abstruse discussions?
<= /font>

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 3:40 PM, John E Clifford= <kali9putra@y= ahoo.com> wrote:

Good! Then you realize the importance of having the mean= ing of all expressions of Lojban as clearly laid out in formal terms as pos= sible, so that computers (as of now at least, can understand). So you= must recognize that the problems with {zo'e} are important, since that wor= d preserves the place structure intact, rather than flittering away into mu= sh when it is not used completely.

Seeing as I intentionally haven't paid attentio= n, at all, to that thread, I don't even know what "problems" {zo'e} has. So= , I'm going to say, no, I don't re3cognixe that they are important. What I = do recognize is that /I/, personally, don't care. I'm not a linguist. To me= {zo'e} means, basically, "context-determined". That is, whatever it is wit= hin the context of the jufra, or possibly the discussion, that would sensib= ly fit in the place {zo'e} is being used (explicitly or implicitly), is wha= t what {zo'e} means in that place. I would not be surprised if a computer o= f today could not understand that, but I do not think it is because {zo'e} = is ill-defined, I think it is because computers don't understand context, o= r even the concept thereof.

I agree about Klingon, but I think tp is cute (subjective, as you say).&nbs= p; And, of course, I like your definition of {lo broda}.

It's not /my/ definition. It's /the/ definition.

From: Jonathan Jones= <eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, September 20, 2011 4:30:17 PM<= div>

Subje= ct: Re: [lojban] Should we have another mailing list for abstrus= e discussions?

My attraction to Lojban is the unambiguous-ness of it's pronunciation,=20 that it is possible to be as specific or as clear as you want, and the=20 place structure system it has due to being based on predicate logic. Oh yes= , and that stated goal of being able to talk to computers and have them /ac= tually understand you/.

I don't take up Klingon because I'm not a Trekkie. While I do like the=20 Star Trek franchise, I'm not enough of a fan to devote time to learn a=20 language spoken by a fictitious race of war-mongers. /IF/ I were going=20 to learn the language of a star Trek species, I'd learn Vulcan. The only Klingon I ever liked was Torres on Voyager, and she was milato.

I don't take up toki pona because it's ugly. I realize that's a subjective = argument, but meh. I'm allowed.

{lo broda} means "one or more things which actually fit into the x1 slot of= the predicate {broda}".

On Tue, Sep 20, = 2011 at 3:09 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:

Well, in keeping with the sayi= ng, what is the attraction of Lojban to you? Why not take up Klingon,= which has a definite culture and definitive answers to your haja questions= (haja form the pluperfect subjunctive?, a question liable to get more mudd= y than xorlo in Lojban)? Or toki pona, that takes about a day to lear= n enough to carry on conversations on a range of things and contribute to t= he list? And, while most of your contributions have been about haja questio= ns or general learning aids (the best app for your smartphone, say), you ha= ve taken part in earlier rounds of the eternal xorlo issue so, are not comp= letely uninterested nor ignorant. So, what do you think {lo broda} me= ans?

From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, September 20, 20= 11 2:58:45 PM
Subject: R= e: [lojban] Should we have another mailing list for abstruse discussions?

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 8:04 AM, John E. Cliffor= d <kali9putra@= yahoo.com> wrote:

Well, as the old saying (I've been saying it for thirty some year= s) goes, "If you want to have a logical language, you have to put up with a= little logic". In the present case, since it concerns {zo'e}, the mo= st common unwritten word in Lojban, and thus {lo}, the most common written = word (possibly excluding {I} and { cu}), it would seem to be worthy of gene= ral attention. The demands of the discussion are not great (yes, Mont= ague's course was graduate level, but Partee's was just Senior level and we= don't need the whole pile here). So gird up and learn a little about= possible worlds and mappings and intensionality. Jboske would be a n= ice site, but,as noted, no one goes there and there is no handy connection = to it from the general site.

Sent from my iPad

I don't even kn= ow what the TITLE means. Oh, I know I could probably look it up and find ou= t, sure. But, here's the thing- I don't care. I am not a linguist or logici= an. I have no interest whatsoever IN understanding. Figuring out how the la= nguage works isn't my job. That job belongs to the linguists and logicians.= They figure out how a word works, then they tell us, in layman's terms, on= ce they've figured it out. The whole zo'e thing going on is exactly that- s= omething they are figuring out.

I've got enough stuff on my "to learn" plate being in college without p= utting the learning of an entirely new discipline on there too- especially = one that I'm not interested in anyway. If I don't /need/ to learn it, and I= don't /want/ to learn it, I'm not going to learn it. Simple as that. Get b= ack to me when you figure out what zo'e means.

<= div>

On Sep 20, 2011, at 5:40, rdentato@gmail.com wrote:

On , Arnt Richard Johan= sen <arj@nvg.org> wrote:
> There is <= a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:jboske@yahoogroups.com" target=3D"_bla= nk" href=3D"mailto:jboske@yahoogroups.com">jboske@yahoogroups.com, but = that one hasn't been posted to since 2007.

Great! Let's ask those that want to conduct such in-depth discussions t= o move there!

remod
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mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )