From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRC2p-TzBBoEOO-gkA@googlegroups.com Tue Sep 20 15:29:20 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1R68oY-0008IN-5g; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:29:19 -0700 Received: by fxg17 with SMTP id 17sf1076109fxg.16 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:29:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=gVeldftrk58DTa2fi97ZyvuDntlLOVIPkWicywXFECc=; b=FTEaDql682In4A5u3ChnhFe/G82MYTccgexdBupznobzvkXedxgkEL47eD+qpPq17x XJoUmGprpRSOF/1RM9wr/7obmWVgq94kmtF8tXMhhw4oseZlnsTFXnz0hrufJHbhh5QF IXu+s6zc/97CbPGn3KxIf5vRrodWUH3AXeQ0o= Received: by 10.223.17.197 with SMTP id t5mr522572faa.2.1316557750084; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:29:10 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.148.152 with SMTP id p24ls1311917bkv.0.gmail; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:29:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.129.18 with SMTP id m18mr9961bks.11.1316557749009; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:29:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.129.18 with SMTP id m18mr9960bks.11.1316557748993; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f44.google.com (mail-fx0-f44.google.com [209.85.161.44]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f27si427342faf.2.2011.09.20.15.29.08 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.44; Received: by fxd18 with SMTP id 18so1652227fxd.17 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:29:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.6.77 with SMTP id 13mr2039754fay.135.1316557748548; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.152.39.35 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:29:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1316535587.5338.YahooMailRC@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20110914041335.GO28088@gonzales> <55EFAEEE-10A9-4002-951E-7BD949DC29F7@yahoo.com> <20110914232007.GC6492@gonzales> <1316055853.22283.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110916000632.GD7274@gonzales> <20110918172927.GA4310@gonzales> <20110918213323.GB6878@gonzales> <20110919013653.GC6878@gonzales> <1316535587.5338.YahooMailRC@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 19:29:08 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.44 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 1:19 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > As far as I can > understand, for xorxes {lo broda} refers to broda-kind, a something or ot= her > (xorxes has always had trouble when we get down to defining it) which has > individual brodas as manifestations (avatars, etc.). That's an odd way of stating my position. For me "lo broda" refers to some thing or things that satisfy the x1 of broda, it wasn't me who brought up kinds. "lo broda" can only refer to a kind if and only if that kind satisfies broda (which I expect broda-kind does, but if not, then not). I also hold that "lo broda" is almost always a good translation for the English bare plural (but not viceversa). If your theory says that the English bare plural refers to a kind, then your theory will also probably say that "lo broda", at least in some cases, refers to a kind. If you have a different theory for the English bare plural, you may also perhaps have a different theory for "lo broda". > =A0(I have passed over xorxes' > insistence on bringing in person segments necessarily along with persons = and his > contrarian refusal to have brodas along with broda kind in the universe o= f a > discussion). Again an odd way of presenting what I've been doing, which is merely bringing up the fruitful analogy that can be observed between individuals and their stages, and kinds and their manifestations. Whatever objections are raised against a kind view of "lo" seem to often be raisable, through that analogy, against ordinary individuals. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.