From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCqueTzBBoEcNmiOg@googlegroups.com Tue Sep 20 16:07:32 2011 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1R69PW-00012X-9Q; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 16:07:32 -0700 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19sf1357625gxk.16 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 16:07:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:message-id:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=xVXEHu0eWLKN2amTEuxzZdFaYBaldBtSngtxkdkk0jc=; b=GTyvP8hOVZqFfJ2vnpIOmxdUIA77jfRdfHyY+E1gGGKriAXISYoQDHSVQO+1BgYcir 40D41codcNF9vT2i1GG0tY1gkRBUlHa1tyOjT2YmdTbBEFO8BV9TytZ0s+++i9GmnZNM VMkUvyrbLZExORHrI1FONqWX3yE55o1q0QgJw= Received: by 10.100.34.4 with SMTP id h4mr353256anh.9.1316560042937; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 16:07:22 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.195.12 with SMTP id x12ls2010568anp.0.gmail; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 16:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.119.201 with SMTP id n49mr636907yhh.0.1316560039089; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 16:07:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.119.201 with SMTP id n49mr636716yhh.0.1316560036996; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 16:07:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm4.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm4.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com. [66.94.237.205]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id z72si837696yhg.0.2011.09.20.16.07.16; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 16:07:16 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.205 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.205; Received: from [66.94.237.200] by nm4.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Sep 2011 23:07:16 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.122] by tm11.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Sep 2011 23:07:16 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1027.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Sep 2011 23:07:16 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 615263.55209.bm@omp1027.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 60052 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Sep 2011 23:07:16 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: EzQ4834VM1kwvzjL1iq0QLWdszYnPj67mIFGhYDrxFE.ss6 3nKQT9b8WJPc9Cvjy0.O9YfgEn1tvpGxPeJ6cA5rHQKD9RuMewAzRRf76lrn ypFHXglhR3NFO1qdKdzt5cprHIgqp0zYPIgJxG5iUUL_CHw5ZYbEoPBrVWmD XKCFUqaDBOKeU0fnsiFco2E2eLd_nrTFdduqVQlF9nhucRqcRhFahWN9CCvA MjnF1QfbN_zLwoRtzF6DA4.rAsqPhauea27iy6TANz8Orx0bJclxoDnq12o5 Xr1Us6OS2fv4HqM2RcQ0WYkhU9Jm4xhzUDKOG0Ujkt6QSXnn78y64cXun2oV fsnWjHapTBVepsuWIwMxo9ChR0CELPf6f7CzXg_YND4EXdr.p3AAYM5ag2A3 jYKcVLPcjJxMAfouEQt7PbCryNUqUKDtjN3TMJsEAiPByQwaKTJTc_I28mzz R_Ud7xPedZnPWO6sPnRzWv0QG3HLPIQvJy3YGhbXyCwxZdTbvXn17_rzxQgZ QB8No7VPsJHXB1lzDEzaOhPAcSy.iDmw- Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 16:07:16 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/574 YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.315625 References: <20110914041335.GO28088@gonzales> <55EFAEEE-10A9-4002-951E-7BD949DC29F7@yahoo.com> <20110914232007.GC6492@gonzales> <1316055853.22283.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110916000632.GD7274@gonzales> <20110918172927.GA4310@gonzales> <20110918213323.GB6878@gonzales> <20110919013653.GC6878@gonzales> <1316535587.5338.YahooMailRC@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1316560036.19099.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 16:07:16 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.205 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry; reading too much history into your remarks. So, we are on the same p= age=20 about {lo broda}, though maybe not on the same paragraph. I am not sure ab= out=20 kinds, which I would as soon leave out of the discussion, unless they mean = -- as=20 they seem to in Chierchia et al -- maximal sets of objects satisfying a=20 predicate in a universe. Exactly how such things satisfy a predicate will= =20 depend on what kind of thing it is and what the predicate is and, at least= =20 occasionally, what we want to say. So, again we are apparently on the same= =20 paragraph even, though the various terminologies make it seem that there ar= e big=20 differences. As noted, I find the situation of kinds and persons exactly opposite: I can= not=20 imagine a domain of discourse that had kinds but no manifestations (or, ind= eed,=20 any serious distinction between the two) but a domain that contained John a= nd no=20 John segments seems not only possible but usual (just as I can talk about= =20 rhinoceroses without having rhinoceros hearts in my universe). The kind se= ems a=20 sort of frill, as do the segments: the one a fancy way to talk about all of= them=20 at once, the other a fancy way to do tensed sentences. I don't see brodas = as=20 derivative from brodakind and I don't see John as the sum of all his parts,= in=20 any sense. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, September 20, 2011 5:29:08 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural= =20 variable On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 1:19 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > As far as I can > understand, for xorxes {lo broda} refers to broda-kind, a something or ot= her > (xorxes has always had trouble when we get down to defining it) which has > individual brodas as manifestations (avatars, etc.). That's an odd way of stating my position. For me "lo broda" refers to some thing or things that satisfy the x1 of broda, it wasn't me who brought up kinds. "lo broda" can only refer to a kind if and only if that kind satisfies broda (which I expect broda-kind does, but if not, then not). I also hold that "lo broda" is almost always a good translation for the English bare plural (but not viceversa). If your theory says that the English bare plural refers to a kind, then your theory will also probably say that "lo broda", at least in some cases, refers to a kind. If you have a different theory for the English bare plural, you may also perhaps have a different theory for "lo broda". > (I have passed over xorxes' > insistence on bringing in person segments necessarily along with persons = and=20 >his > contrarian refusal to have brodas along with broda kind in the universe o= f a > discussion). Again an odd way of presenting what I've been doing, which is merely bringing up the fruitful analogy that can be observed between individuals and their stages, and kinds and their manifestations. Whatever objections are raised against a kind view of "lo" seem to often be raisable, through that analogy, against ordinary individuals. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.