From lojban+bncCOTEtqyUDhCa9eTzBBoE38jYJA@googlegroups.com Tue Sep 20 18:16:15 2011 Received: from mail-pz0-f61.google.com ([209.85.210.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1R6BQ5-0004Dy-8d; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 18:16:15 -0700 Received: by pzk32 with SMTP id 32sf130286pzk.16 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 18:16:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:x-pgp-key :x-pgp-keyid:x-cunselcu'a-valsi:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=JaJX0meV44mouj07/NhIOg6W1RD1nMxP2tGdhMrQs1Y=; b=3rvgnEcow0WVArz5pbFw4x9ghElS7QYBNdd9FZu4rW0lvz7m6rx79KaNK7Q/J7YG7T KirhloHKYzQpt0X3gPQGYcNRDxLKyhBVyDMVFXNsOBAK7rP7/8NEqwDFTXSJ2OPOCdNY ycpGFPrCxOz9TYmBcSmxIwQwNkkIAekOLY8Uw= Received: by 10.68.42.67 with SMTP id m3mr62921pbl.64.1316567706781; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 18:15:06 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.19.131 with SMTP id f3ls3504760pbe.5.gmail; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 18:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.58.168 with SMTP id s8mr239685pbq.15.1316567704881; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 18:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.58.168 with SMTP id s8mr239684pbq.15.1316567704865; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 18:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sdf.lonestar.org (mx.sdf.org. [192.94.73.19]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id kr11si4333053pbb.1.2011.09.20.18.15.04 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 20 Sep 2011 18:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) client-ip=192.94.73.19; Received: from gonzales.homelinux.org (root@sverige.freeshell.org [192.94.73.4]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.4/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p8L1F451002539 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 01:15:04 GMT Received: from martin by gonzales.homelinux.org with local (Exim 4.75) (envelope-from ) id 1R6BOy-0000CT-0B for lojban@googlegroups.com; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 21:15:04 -0400 Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 21:15:03 -0400 From: Martin Bays To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'e} as close-scope existentially quantified plural variable Message-ID: <20110921011503.GS4310@gonzales> References: <20110918172927.GA4310@gonzales> <20110918213323.GB6878@gonzales> <20110919013653.GC6878@gonzales> <20110919231314.GI4310@gonzales> <20110920034640.GK4310@gonzales> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="6B5oiwbC31sfIr4n" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-PGP-Key: http://mbays.freeshell.org/pubkey.asc X-PGP-KeyId: B5FB2CD6 X-cunselcu'a-valsi: korbi User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Original-Sender: mbays@sdf.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mbays@sdf.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , --6B5oiwbC31sfIr4n Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Tuesday, 2011-09-20 at 21:16 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=EDas : > On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 12:46 AM, Martin Bays wrote: > > > > The problems with counting and so on which arise when we mix kinds and > > instances could be rectified by simply declaring that {da} and > > {[quantifier] [selbri]} never get kinds - i.e. the corresponding > > variables are over 'mundane' singular objects (AT minus K, in > > Chierchia's notation). >=20 > What would you then say of these: >=20 > ro klesi be lo gerku cu gerku >=20 > lo xanto cu bramau ro drata ke tumla danlu >=20 > lo remna cu se tuple re da I would say that they are false. For the first, I don't think that's a problem. For the third: it could be replaced by {lo remna cu ckaji lo ka se tuple re da}, or by a tanru - {lo remna cu re mei se tuple} - or by an explicit generic quantifier, which {so'e} arguably is: {so'e remna cu se tuple re da}. The second is toughest, and a good demonstration of the power of kind-quantification, but since it is in the end a case of generics, I think it can be handled similarly: {so'e xanto cu bramau so'e tumla danlu poi na xanto} That doesn't help with a pure kind predication, though. For that, e.g. "I like all animal species", you'd have to be explicit about the kind predication: {mi nelci ro ka danlu ma kau} (assuming {ka} and qkau work so as to make that work) In general, it seems to me that kind predications resolve as one of * existential quantification * generic quantification * property predication {lo broda} might allow you to be ambiguous between the three, but for complicated sentences you'd have to say what you mean. Is that so bad? > > I suggested something like this before, and I think you complained that > > we shouldn't be separating out kinds from mundanes... but since > > Chierchia does it, I feel licensed to push again for an explanation of > > what would go so wrong if we did separate them out. >=20 > I see no major problem in separating the metalinguistic construct > "kind", as defined for example by Chierchia, for contexts in which > they appear together with their manifestations. My only problem would > be if you forbid saying things like (quote) "My two favourite things > are to cycle and to go to the cinema alone", i.e. if you don't allow > "to cycle" and "to go to the cinema alone" to count as things in any > context. So I think I'd want to make that {lo ka nu mi relxilma'e sazri ku joi lo ka nu mi nonkansa ve skina cu remei traji lo ka mi nelci}. Martin --6B5oiwbC31sfIr4n Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk55OpcACgkQULC7OLX7LNZnOgCgzRLOCTs7S9N3s2I+D2NPeKwb mB4AoNpcMvqKAdJn9nMv95b9gsMuAfcR =I6tC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --6B5oiwbC31sfIr4n--