From lojban+bncCOTEtqyUDhCI55jzBBoEqTQOlA@googlegroups.com Tue Sep 06 07:52:06 2011 Received: from mail-pz0-f56.google.com ([209.85.210.56]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1R0x0L-0002wd-B2; Tue, 06 Sep 2011 07:52:05 -0700 Received: by pzk33 with SMTP id 33sf14821262pzk.1 for ; Tue, 06 Sep 2011 07:51:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:x-pgp-key :x-pgp-keyid:x-cunselcu'a-valsi:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=JiJM/4Ssf1rXQatBJIPW9/QCHMheHtHEH+kKcVFs+Xw=; b=txaGa9q7rVAhWXZJ/tbZ42Ai8naB7nj/25PiCvEDjmxTBxvvdfsanErLcCKQKbUwwS FdaHzb6fLk+rkt5jtp9sgWZyCb8YmM+tqD+6Yo+MR0T0H7Dvq2klAurNCnchsoO7VPr9 RHDN4sRT5ThpZl3/Zp0hwGDRPECeLR2b7T4aI= Received: by 10.68.19.227 with SMTP id i3mr742589pbe.31.1315320712801; Tue, 06 Sep 2011 07:51:52 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.218.14 with SMTP id q14ls3629129wfg.3.gmail; Tue, 06 Sep 2011 07:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.47.201 with SMTP id f9mr3777958pbn.16.1315320711988; Tue, 06 Sep 2011 07:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.47.201 with SMTP id f9mr3777957pbn.16.1315320711979; Tue, 06 Sep 2011 07:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sdf.lonestar.org (mx.sdf.org. [192.94.73.19]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ll18si14815217pbb.0.2011.09.06.07.51.51 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 06 Sep 2011 07:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) client-ip=192.94.73.19; Received: from gonzales.homelinux.org (root@sverige.freeshell.org [192.94.73.4]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.4/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p86Epp54008678 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 14:51:51 GMT Received: from martin by gonzales.homelinux.org with local (Exim 4.75) (envelope-from ) id 1R0wV1-0002dB-2a for lojban@googlegroups.com; Tue, 06 Sep 2011 10:19:39 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 10:19:39 -0400 From: Martin Bays To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] gadri and scope Message-ID: <20110906141939.GB2615@gonzales> References: <20110906102408.GA2615@gonzales> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="zx4FCpZtqtKETZ7O" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-PGP-Key: http://mbays.freeshell.org/pubkey.asc X-PGP-KeyId: B5FB2CD6 X-cunselcu'a-valsi: junri User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Original-Sender: mbays@sdf.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mbays@sdf.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , --zx4FCpZtqtKETZ7O Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Tuesday, 2011-09-06 at 08:14 -0400 - Ian Johnson : > Are you sure (iii) is even what you wanted? {di} seems to have come in fr= om > nowhere, among other problems. Yes, that was deliberate. If the "zo'e noi" phrase is to truly be a constant, it must not mention any externally bound variables. I was missing a {zo'u}, though. > Anyway, I don't actually know, but I also don't actually see how (i) and > (ii) are semantically different, because I don't know how multiple {zo'u} > work semantically. You're right, they probably are equivalent ('probably' because it depends on the semantics of zo'e, which are murky). I should have given a more complicated example. Make it: {ro da zo'u da brode lo broda be da bei de be'o de} The options are now: (i) {ro da su'o de zo'u da brode zo'e noi ke'a broda da de ku'o de} (ii) {ro da su'o di zo'u da brode zo'e noi su'o de zo'u ke'a broda da de ku'o di} (iii) {ro da su'o daxivo zo'u da brode zo'e noi su'o de su'o di zo'u ke'a broda de di ku'o daxivo}. (Again, giving variables different names where possible, for clarity, and explicitly putting in the {ke'a}s this time.) > mu'o mi'e latros >=20 > On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 6:24 AM, Martin Bays wrote: >=20 > > {ro da zo'u da brode lo broda be da bei de} > > > > should be equivalent (under xorlo) to one of > > > > (i) {ro da su'o de zo'u da brode zo'e noi broda da de} > > (ii) {ro da zo'u da brode zo'e noi su'o de zo'u broda da de} > > (iii) {ro da zo'u da brode zo'e noi su'o de su'o di broda de di}. > > > > Which? > > > > I think (ii) is the best choice, on the bases of naturality and > > usefulness. > > > > (i) is what you'd get if you took exportation to the prenex as a golden > > rule, and (iii) is what you'd get if you considered it all-important > > that {lo} give a constant. > > > > (ii) makes its own sense - it's what you get if you consider tanru > > units, linkargs included, to correspond directly to relative clauses. > > > > Martin > > >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. >=20 --zx4FCpZtqtKETZ7O Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk5mK/sACgkQULC7OLX7LNakWgCg51HxuWStol2tQVCje083CHgP 4EwAmwSe4Slu7GZkNOeXIy15h8krUK9y =V2Lw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --zx4FCpZtqtKETZ7O--