From lojban+bncCOTEtqyUDhCJ55jzBBoEOkLcJg@googlegroups.com Tue Sep 06 07:57:26 2011 Received: from mail-pz0-f56.google.com ([209.85.210.56]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1R0x5Y-00036B-2C; Tue, 06 Sep 2011 07:57:26 -0700 Received: by pzk33 with SMTP id 33sf14830670pzk.1 for ; Tue, 06 Sep 2011 07:57:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:x-pgp-key :x-pgp-keyid:x-cunselcu'a-valsi:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=DYXpZKr3v+yfrGNuD6nJ0yM9FjGO1ZjcwQ67XTeYFew=; b=NCAUWZSFhjRZ0MsKv+YPLkzuzGPf8TuJr4ZPkODor61r3RVygAnTRbdgafELJLwTBg 3bUAQ4SWzmJHoTTY2eer9yj4+dyIVWRV6EUmOge6NDoBjZIFeduwi7jdzktM7Jqrr5hZ bwAXADL02zA6hQrhQK077/JRKf9bzA+Yr9H7g= Received: by 10.68.6.97 with SMTP id z1mr1739552pbz.73.1315320713708; Tue, 06 Sep 2011 07:51:53 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.104.12 with SMTP id b12ls3693587wfc.0.gmail; Tue, 06 Sep 2011 07:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.21.67 with SMTP id t3mr3952968pbe.26.1315320712784; Tue, 06 Sep 2011 07:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.21.67 with SMTP id t3mr3952967pbe.26.1315320712773; Tue, 06 Sep 2011 07:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sdf.lonestar.org (mx.sdf.org. [192.94.73.19]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id kr11si14811444pbb.1.2011.09.06.07.51.52 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 06 Sep 2011 07:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) client-ip=192.94.73.19; Received: from gonzales.homelinux.org (root@sverige.freeshell.org [192.94.73.4]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.4/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p86Epp56008678 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 14:51:52 GMT Received: from martin by gonzales.homelinux.org with local (Exim 4.75) (envelope-from ) id 1R0wYK-0002hP-Lf for lojban@googlegroups.com; Tue, 06 Sep 2011 10:23:04 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 10:23:04 -0400 From: Martin Bays To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] gadri and scope Message-ID: <20110906142304.GC2615@gonzales> References: <20110906102408.GA2615@gonzales> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="rQ2U398070+RC21q" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-PGP-Key: http://mbays.freeshell.org/pubkey.asc X-PGP-KeyId: B5FB2CD6 X-cunselcu'a-valsi: junri User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Original-Sender: mbays@sdf.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of mbays@sdf.org designates 192.94.73.19 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mbays@sdf.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , --rQ2U398070+RC21q Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Tuesday, 2011-09-06 at 09:47 -0400 - Luke Bergen : > Actually, because xorlo has no default quantifiers I think all three are > incorrect as "equivalences". I think several of them are *possible* > understandings > of the original sentence, but not equivalent. As far as I understand it.= =2E. Default quantifiers don't come into it. > {ro da zo'u da brode lo broda be da bei de} >=20 > =3D >=20 > {ro da brode zo'e noi broda da de}. Good, that's option (ii). And as in my reply to latros of some seconds ago, do you agree also that {ro da zo'u da brode lo broda be da bei de be'o de} =3D {ro da brode zo'e noi broda da de ku'o de}? > If I'm remembering correctly, {lo broda} can, in general, be replaced by > {zo'e noi broda} it is truly that unspecific. > On Sep 6, 2011 8:14 AM, "Ian Johnson" wrote: > > Are you sure (iii) is even what you wanted? {di} seems to have come in > from > > nowhere, among other problems. > > > > Anyway, I don't actually know, but I also don't actually see how (i) and > > (ii) are semantically different, because I don't know how multiple {zo'= u} > > work semantically. > > > > mu'o mi'e latros > > > > On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 6:24 AM, Martin Bays wrote: > > > >> {ro da zo'u da brode lo broda be da bei de} > >> > >> should be equivalent (under xorlo) to one of > >> > >> (i) {ro da su'o de zo'u da brode zo'e noi broda da de} > >> (ii) {ro da zo'u da brode zo'e noi su'o de zo'u broda da de} > >> (iii) {ro da zo'u da brode zo'e noi su'o de su'o di broda de di}. > >> > >> Which? > >> > >> I think (ii) is the best choice, on the bases of naturality and > >> usefulness. > >> > >> (i) is what you'd get if you took exportation to the prenex as a golden > >> rule, and (iii) is what you'd get if you considered it all-important > >> that {lo} give a constant. > >> > >> (ii) makes its own sense - it's what you get if you consider tanru > >> units, linkargs included, to correspond directly to relative clauses. > >> > >> Martin > >> > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. >=20 --rQ2U398070+RC21q Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk5mLMgACgkQULC7OLX7LNYSJACeNFEumMUIMeba6jE6I2zS6olw LlsAoKQFgafFez138WK9O85iJKMnSDhE =G1jg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --rQ2U398070+RC21q--