From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhCEqp3zBBoEGP8vHQ@googlegroups.com Wed Sep 07 04:27:11 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1R1GHc-00078Z-LZ; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 04:27:11 -0700 Received: by fxd2 with SMTP id 2sf633912fxd.16 for ; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 04:27:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Qeei+gwzh6jq1xkfXOYewzC1cQiyoKz5oQZXJVqBjGk=; b=XJH9QMmOPa60MLJGUwveHo1x7U6Rz+U0Nd1L9FcAVGG3W/23NbuPoyWI6CuVVLzqXr SaqkDCQ6Toi852wy4H3Gu3zwNiMjqtrVgXm4OOU2zfz7Btpzh0n/aKRqN+GuVsyMR4p/ J4KoexIaq0NOzXIbcPatFNiWN2dyIywwdDhpU= Received: by 10.223.55.149 with SMTP id u21mr1033361fag.1.1315394820035; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 04:27:00 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.2.69 with SMTP id 5ls1661567bki.1.gmail; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 04:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.142.71 with SMTP id p7mr1260963bku.16.1315394818426; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 04:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.142.71 with SMTP id p7mr1260962bku.16.1315394818401; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 04:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f49.google.com (mail-bw0-f49.google.com [209.85.214.49]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n12si21303bkj.2.2011.09.07.04.26.58 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 07 Sep 2011 04:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.49 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.49; Received: by mail-bw0-f49.google.com with SMTP id 17so97008bke.36 for ; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 04:26:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.147.219 with SMTP id m27mr3380157bkv.112.1315394818083; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 04:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.36.141 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Sep 2011 04:26:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <0016e651fec0df660a04ac541439@google.com> References: <0016e651fec0df660a04ac541439@google.com> Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 07:26:58 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Re: [lojban] tosmabru test From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.49 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174be2d4df0bfb04ac58387f --0015174be2d4df0bfb04ac58387f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 If you look at actual human speech spectograms, and the like, it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to tell where one word ends and another begins in normal human speech. That's why speech recognition software has beeen so traditionally tough to do. Whereas it's pretty trivial for the human brain, (since we work with several layers of processing at once, taking into account a lot of factors, such as anticipating what the likely next word is and so forth), it's much tougher for a computer. So, unless we want..to.. be... stukc...talking..like..this, we must make sure that spoken lojban works even for people who, like me, a son of the northeastern US, used to rapid speech production/reception can be understood unambiguously in lojban. Hence the emphasis on stress (or the stress on emphasis) and C/V rules for breaking up word boundaries. --Mike T. On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 2:30 AM, wrote: > On , Ross Ogilvie wrote: > > The issue is that there is no whitespace in speech. > > I would have a very hard time trying not to "pronounce" a whitespace as > short pause. > I would read {pa plise} and {paplise} differently putting a short > interruption between {pa} and {plise} in the first case. > The fact that they are the same just put more strain on the listener that > has to break up words in his mind without the help of that short > interruption. > > After all, we do have {.} so if I really meant two words, why didn't I say > {pa.plise}? > > But, I'm not complaining, just wanted to understand the benefits. So far it > seems to me that this would help the speaker making him free to pronounce > words as a single flow with a price for the listener that has to break > things up without counting on the short pauses that the whitespaces imply > (at least to me). > > > remod > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0015174be2d4df0bfb04ac58387f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=A0 If you look at actual human speech spectograms, a= nd the like, it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to tell where one word ends and ano= ther begins in normal human speech.=A0 That's why speech recognition so= ftware has beeen so traditionally tough to do.=A0 Whereas it's pretty t= rivial for the human brain, (since we work with several layers of processin= g at once, taking into account a lot of factors, such as anticipating what = the likely next word is and so forth), it's much tougher for a computer= . So, unless we want..to.. be... stukc...talking..like..this, we must make = sure that spoken lojban works even for people who, like me, a son of the no= rtheastern US, used to rapid speech production/reception can be understood = unambiguously in lojban.=A0=A0 Hence the emphasis on stress (or the stress = on emphasis) and C/V rules for breaking up word boundaries.
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --Mike T.

=A0
On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 2:30 AM, <rdentato@gmail.com> wrote:
On , Ross Ogilvie <oges007@gmail.com> wrote:
> The issue is t= hat there is no whitespace in speech.

I would have a very hard= time trying not to "pronounce" a whitespace as short pause.
I would read {pa plise} and {paplise} differently putting a short interrupt= ion between {pa} and {plise} in the first case.
The fact that they are t= he same just put more strain on the listener that has to break up words in = his mind without the help of that short interruption.

After all, we do have {.} so if I really meant two words, why didn'= t I say {pa.plise}?

But, I'm not complaining, just wanted to und= erstand the benefits. So far it seems to me that this would help the speake= r making him free to pronounce words as a single flow with a price for the = listener that has to break things up without counting on the short pauses t= hat the whitespaces imply (at least to me).=20


remod=20

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