From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhDlrJ3zBBoE-yFpVA@googlegroups.com Wed Sep 07 04:33:05 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1R1GNJ-0007KH-Rd; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 04:33:05 -0700 Received: by fxd2 with SMTP id 2sf644684fxd.16 for ; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 04:32:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=IG5SgTfDGbKUWBHhM00VI9oA00u6io5PofqGm3pLMU4=; b=Wt3UlTyat05qbqWpAIY+IV8+FiZQSKB33UIadhMTwCVwL3xHgq6jHOFhRy1Ec9cbN8 nOPAQFBIiQq4W/wtKoMVGcMfJO37so037SupiT9uItf1aN+fv9J6mFMMzS+S5Sh8SDfo d2h3A2MJ6gDUcz+mn3SvxQz6TZARcovCZCB/A= Received: by 10.223.22.208 with SMTP id o16mr1019115fab.29.1315395173411; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 04:32:53 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.132.1 with SMTP id z1ls1160775bks.3.gmail; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 04:32:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.131.208 with SMTP id y16mr1301261bks.11.1315395172140; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 04:32:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.131.208 with SMTP id y16mr1301260bks.11.1315395172101; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 04:32:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f48.google.com (mail-bw0-f48.google.com [209.85.214.48]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g11si25017bki.0.2011.09.07.04.32.52 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 07 Sep 2011 04:32:52 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.48 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.48; Received: by mail-bw0-f48.google.com with SMTP id t2so121163bka.35 for ; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 04:32:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.151.85 with SMTP id b21mr14223bkw.8.1315395171874; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 04:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.36.141 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Sep 2011 04:32:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <0016e651fec0df660a04ac541439@google.com> Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 07:32:51 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Re: [lojban] tosmabru test From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.48 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175cabccf579ce04ac584d83 --0015175cabccf579ce04ac584d83 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 (Here's a good example -- http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~robh/archives/arc0701.html ) On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 7:26 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > If you look at actual human speech spectograms, and the like, it is > virtually IMPOSSIBLE to tell where one word ends and another begins in > normal human speech. That's why speech recognition software has beeen so > traditionally tough to do. Whereas it's pretty trivial for the human brain, > (since we work with several layers of processing at once, taking into > account a lot of factors, such as anticipating what the likely next word is > and so forth), it's much tougher for a computer. So, unless we want..to.. > be... stukc...talking..like..this, we must make sure that spoken lojban > works even for people who, like me, a son of the northeastern US, used to > rapid speech production/reception can be understood unambiguously in > lojban. Hence the emphasis on stress (or the stress on emphasis) and C/V > rules for breaking up word boundaries. > --Mike T. > > > On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 2:30 AM, wrote: > >> On , Ross Ogilvie wrote: >> > The issue is that there is no whitespace in speech. >> >> I would have a very hard time trying not to "pronounce" a whitespace as >> short pause. >> I would read {pa plise} and {paplise} differently putting a short >> interruption between {pa} and {plise} in the first case. >> The fact that they are the same just put more strain on the listener that >> has to break up words in his mind without the help of that short >> interruption. >> >> After all, we do have {.} so if I really meant two words, why didn't I say >> {pa.plise}? >> >> But, I'm not complaining, just wanted to understand the benefits. So far >> it seems to me that this would help the speaker making him free to pronounce >> words as a single flow with a price for the listener that has to break >> things up without counting on the short pauses that the whitespaces imply >> (at least to me). >> >> >> remod >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0015175cabccf579ce04ac584d83 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=A0 (Here's a good example -- http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~ro= bh/archives/arc0701.html=A0)

On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 7:26 AM, Michael Turnians= ky <mturnians= ky@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0 If you look at actual human speech spectograms, and the like, it i= s virtually IMPOSSIBLE to tell where one word ends and another begins in no= rmal human speech.=A0 That's why speech recognition software has beeen = so traditionally tough to do.=A0 Whereas it's pretty trivial for the hu= man brain, (since we work with several layers of processing at once, taking= into account a lot of factors, such as anticipating what the likely next w= ord is and so forth), it's much tougher for a computer. So, unless we w= ant..to.. be... stukc...talking..like..this, we must make sure that spoken = lojban works even for people who, like me, a son of the northeastern US, us= ed to rapid speech production/reception can be understood unambiguously in = lojban.=A0=A0 Hence the emphasis on stress (or the stress on emphasis) and = C/V rules for breaking up word boundaries.
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --Mike T.

=A0
On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 2:30 AM, <rdentato@gmai= l.com> wrote:
On , Ross Ogilvie <oges007@gmail.com> wrote:
> The issue is that there is = no whitespace in speech.

I would have a very hard time trying = not to "pronounce" a whitespace as short pause.
I would read {pa plise} and {paplise} differently putting a short interrupt= ion between {pa} and {plise} in the first case.
The fact that they are t= he same just put more strain on the listener that has to break up words in = his mind without the help of that short interruption.

After all, we do have {.} so if I really meant two words, why didn'= t I say {pa.plise}?

But, I'm not complaining, just wanted to und= erstand the benefits. So far it seems to me that this would help the speake= r making him free to pronounce words as a single flow with a price for the = listener that has to break things up without counting on the short pauses t= hat the whitespaces imply (at least to me).=20


remod=20

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