From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhD32Z3zBBoEQXsJDw@googlegroups.com Wed Sep 07 06:09:23 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1R1HsV-00023q-Q5; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 06:09:22 -0700 Received: by fxd2 with SMTP id 2sf745586fxd.16 for ; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 06:09:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=lGwgikYY9Gn5NCC12DPLgX51XJbV6VGYmaAGxwfkMl0=; b=fxPptwb/+KUZHrm6dEHOnIs8VQ3XNdqFfIYnpKtPPWBtupSUbRw8RKoMmRXmxJ9aZg KnpkmXo63rnzWVfJL3cjdrzAx+zbz03EzoJYxNcusyDQrMBGgU8afUcI1mwk9JE/nLi8 81YX0TF/rSY8ZdVh4VHT+JAAPDxyqVmBIBRwg= Received: by 10.223.19.73 with SMTP id z9mr543305faa.7.1315400951085; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 06:09:11 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.132.1 with SMTP id z1ls1221958bks.3.gmail; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 06:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.128.141 with SMTP id k13mr1296223bks.2.1315400949413; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 06:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.128.141 with SMTP id k13mr1296222bks.2.1315400949386; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 06:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f50.google.com (mail-bw0-f50.google.com [209.85.214.50]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n12si61510bkj.2.2011.09.07.06.09.09 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 07 Sep 2011 06:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.50 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.50; Received: by mail-bw0-f50.google.com with SMTP id zu5so165380bkb.9 for ; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 06:09:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.4.76 with SMTP id 12mr3407409bkq.60.1315400949153; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 06:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.36.141 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Sep 2011 06:09:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20110902145107.GA19571@gonzales> Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 09:09:09 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: paradox From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.50 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c1e024fc19d04ac59a655 --0015174c1e024fc19d04ac59a655 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I assume this was before the great rafsi shift, since you correctly state= d in your original letter that it would now be "sezra'a". --gejyspa On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 2:52 PM, ianek wrote: > Oh, I see that {sevra'a} has already been used in that meaning in > http://www.lojban.org/files/texts/moser > > On Sep 2, 8:47 pm, ianek wrote: > > http://dag.github.com/cll/11/4/ > > > > Quote: > > It is also possible to have more than one =93ce'u=94 in a =93ka=94 > > abstraction, which transforms it from a property abstraction into a > > relationship abstraction. Relationship abstractions =93package up=94 a > > complex relationship for future use; such an abstraction can be > > translated back into a selbri by placing it in the x2 place of the > > selbri =93bridi=94, whose place structure is: > > > > =93bridi=94: x1 is a predicate relationship with relation > > x2 (abstraction) among arguments (sequence/set) x3 > > End quote. > > > > So, {lo ka ce'u ce'u na ckaji} is not right. It should be something > > like {lo ka ce'u lo nei na ckaji} unless I'm wrong (not sure whether > > {nei} refers to the inner bridi). {vo'a} can't be used here, as it > > refers to the x1 of the outer bridi, ie. the full abstraction. {ri} > > can't be used also, as it doesn't refer to KOhA. > > > > This opens a subject which bugged me for a long time: how are > > reflexive relationships handled in Lojban? I've seen lujvo with > > {sevzi} to handle them, but this doesn't seem right in general, as the > > definition of {sevzi} suggests a concious being (unless I'm wrong), so > > it couldn't be used to make eg. {sezra'a} mean "x1 is self- > > referential". > > > > mu'o mi'e ianek > > > > On Sep 2, 4:51 pm, Martin Bays wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cute Russel for properties, which translates nicely to lojban: > > > > > xu lo ka ce'u ce'u na ckaji ku vo'a ckaji > > > > > application_pgp-signature_part > > > < 1KViewDownload > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0015174c1e024fc19d04ac59a655 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=A0 I assume this was before the great rafsi shift, s= ince you correctly stated in your original letter that it would now be &quo= t;sezra'a".
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa

On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 2:52 PM, ianek <janek37@gmail.com>= wrote:
Oh, I see that {sevra'a} has= already been used in that meaning in
http://www.lojban.org/files/texts/moser=

On Sep 2, 8:47=A0pm, ianek <jane...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://dag.github.com/cll/11/4/<= /a>
>
> Quote:
> It is also possible to have more than one =93ce= 'u=94 in a =93ka=94
> abstraction, which transforms it from a pro= perty abstraction into a
> relationship abstraction. Relationship abs= tractions =93package up=94 a
> complex relationship for future use; such an abstraction can be
>= ; translated back into a selbri by placing it in the x2 place of the
>= ; selbri =93bridi=94, whose place structure is:
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0= =A0=93bridi=94: x1 is a predicate relationship with relation
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0x2 (abstraction) among arguments (sequence/= set) x3
> End quote.
>
> So, {lo ka ce'u ce'u na = ckaji} is not right. It should be something
> like {lo ka ce'u lo= nei na ckaji} unless I'm wrong (not sure whether
> {nei} refers to the inner bridi). {vo'a} can't be used here, a= s it
> refers to the x1 of the outer bridi, ie. the full abstraction.= {ri}
> can't be used also, as it doesn't refer to KOhA.
>
> This opens a subject which bugged me for a long time: how are<= br>> reflexive relationships handled in Lojban? I've seen lujvo with=
> {sevzi} to handle them, but this doesn't seem right in general= , as the
> definition of {sevzi} suggests a concious being (unless I'm wrong)= , so
> it couldn't be used to make eg. {sezra'a} mean "x= 1 is self-
> referential".
>
> mu'o mi'e ian= ek
>
> On Sep 2, 4:51=A0pm, Martin Bays <mb...@sdf.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>= ;
>
>
> > Cute Russel for properties, which translates= nicely to lojban:
>
> > xu lo ka ce'u ce'u na ckaji ku vo'a ckaji
= >
> > =A0application_pgp-signature_part
> > < 1KVie= wDownload

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