From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhCovaDzBBoELf159Q@googlegroups.com Wed Sep 07 18:47:33 2011 Received: from mail-vw0-f56.google.com ([209.85.212.56]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1R1TiD-0007Iz-A7; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 18:47:32 -0700 Received: by vws15 with SMTP id 15sf175459vws.1 for ; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 18:47:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=RumlnpqOcVW8g+c5wVL47NlRzZER/qdsG2iTZVTQQjc=; b=rMGeV1/w3qKjB5u8MI35FDYuo9Tl8dI0KsAnWeTGvAa3UQZIjQFbRHcQd5Prjn0+zH XOAK7nWgd1SDD6Wa52w1JIg7611VhhcRZzC3AMkpRwZRnFVJqTYlBxe09Nv9crp8oOzM JFuNuIiBZiIFqeFbwuCy985TCjRIJHdJcWOPQ= Received: by 10.220.116.4 with SMTP id k4mr9570vcq.24.1315446440899; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 18:47:20 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.221.12.196 with SMTP id pj4ls61096vcb.2.canary; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 18:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.35.97 with SMTP id g1mr72013vdj.2.1315446344886; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 18:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.35.97 with SMTP id g1mr72012vdj.2.1315446344873; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 18:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vx0-f180.google.com (mail-vx0-f180.google.com [209.85.220.180]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bh5si1024000vdc.3.2011.09.07.18.45.44 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 07 Sep 2011 18:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.180; Received: by vxi19 with SMTP id 19so379447vxi.39 for ; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 18:45:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.29.51 with SMTP id g19mr85623vdh.381.1315446344751; Wed, 07 Sep 2011 18:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.110.165 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Sep 2011 18:45:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <0016e6d3878a9d815804ac578789@google.com> <4E67AC15.9080802@lojban.org> <201109071512.38841.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 21:45:44 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] tosmabru test From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.180 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf30780f5c199a8004ac643817 --20cf30780f5c199a8004ac643817 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2011/9/7 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Michael Turniansky > wrote: > > From googling it, I see that you are using "claselkre" to mean "Mane"= , > > your long hair group. But, I have to ask... why "claselkre"? You are = a > se > > ke clani kerfa, not a clani se kerfa. (Well, maybe you are long. I'm > not > > sure.) I mean, sure, you can assign the places however you wish, but i= t > > does seem to be the wrong underlying tanru) > > Do you also object to things like "cinfykalte" for "lion hunter"? > No, but that's because I think of it as a "cinfo kalte", not as the more precise "kalte be lo cinfo". Similarly, when I see "claselkre", I think of it as clani se kerfa. (Although certainly, if I was defining it in lojban for dictionary, I would use the latter). Because I would define "long hair= " as "clani kerfa" (it would not be a kerfa clani, for the would that would b= e a long thing that is hairy, which may or may not actually be hair), I would think of the possessor of long hair as a se ke clani kerfa. And that's wha= t I would base my lujvo on (there's a reason they have "kem" as a rafsi, you know). In general, "brode zei broda" for "broda be lo brode" will not shock > an English speaker as long as brode corresponds to a noun in English, > but Lojban doesn't divide its words into nouns and adjectives, so > "claselkre" for "se krefu be lo clani" shouldn't be so shocking. Lots > of lujvo follow that pattern. > > I see your point, although I don't think it's as much the noun thing as you think it is. I would have no problem thinking of a xunkalte as either = a hunter who is red, or a hunter who hunts red things, depending on what the definition actually is, but I would still see it as "xunre kalte" first, an= d work from there. On the other hand, were I to see "cinfyselkre", I would see "cinfo se kerfa (not krefu, btw, but I forgive you like you forgive me for constantly mixing up ciska/citka)", and it assume it something with hair, who had a lionish aspect to him (and not necessarily that aspect bein= g lionish hair). --gejyspa --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --20cf30780f5c199a8004ac643817 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2011/9/7 Jorge Llamb=ED= as <jjllambias= @gmail.com>
On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Michael Turniansky
<mturniansky@gmail.com> = wrote:
> =A0 From googling it, I see that you are using "claselkre" t= o mean "Mane",
> your long hair group.=A0 But, I have to ask... why "claselkre&quo= t;?=A0 You are a se
> ke clani kerfa, not a clani se kerfa.=A0 (Well, maybe you are long.=A0= I'm not
> sure.)=A0 I mean, sure, you can assign the places however you wish, bu= t it
> does seem to be the wrong underlying tanru)

Do you also object to things like "cinfykalte" for "li= on hunter"?

=A0 No, but that's because I = think of it as a "cinfo kalte", not as the more precise "kal= te be lo cinfo".=A0 Similarly, when I see "claselkre", I thi= nk of it as clani se kerfa. (Although certainly, if I was defining it in l= ojban for dictionary, I would use the latter).=A0 Because I would define &q= uot;long hair" as "clani kerfa" (it would not be a kerfa cla= ni, for the would that would be a long thing that is hairy, which may or ma= y not actually be hair), I would think of the possessor of long hair as a s= e ke clani kerfa.=A0 And that's what I would base my lujvo on (there= 9;s a reason they have "kem" as a rafsi, you know).


In general, "brode zei broda" for "broda be lo brode" w= ill not shock
an English speaker as long as brode corresponds to a noun in English,
but Lojban doesn't divide its words into nouns and adjectives, so
"claselkre" for "se krefu be lo clani" shouldn't be= so shocking. Lots
of lujvo follow that pattern.


=A0 I see your point, although I don't think = it's as much the noun thing as you think it is.=A0 I would have no prob= lem thinking of a xunkalte as either a hunter who is red, or a hunter who h= unts red things, depending on what the definition actually is, but I would = still see it as "xunre kalte" first, and work from there.=A0=A0 O= n the other hand, were I to see "cinfyselkre", I would see "= cinfo se kerfa (not krefu, btw, but I forgive you like you forgive me for c= onstantly mixing up ciska/citka)", and it assume it something with hai= r, who had a lionish aspect to him (and not necessarily that aspect being l= ionish hair).
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa

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