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Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 19:29:12 -0200
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Subject: Re: [lojban] [Oz] {ji'i}
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Felipe_Gon=E7alves_Assis?= <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>
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In any case, can someone please document that online in whatever the
appropriate place is? I don't think the mailing list archives are good
enough for this.

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.


On 12 January 2014 16:08, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:

> la .iesk. cu cusku di'e
>
>> Hello Selpa'i,
>>
>
> Hello.
>
>
>  do you use {ji'i} in a sense different from what CLL has?
>>
>
> Yes, slightly.
>
>
>  I don't know the English source text, but from context it seems
>> implausible that there are 'ca. 34 chairs' ('30-and-circa-4 chairs')
>> in the farm house, which is how I normally understand {lo ci ji'i vo
>> stizu}.
>>
>> Does {ci ji'i vo} mean 'three to four' or something like that in the
>> Oz text? If so, could you explain if that is the usual meaning of
>> {ji'i} (in which case I have been misunderstanding CLL) or a deviant
>> usage?
>>
>
> The way I use {ji'i} (and I don't want to take credit for something xorxes
> has been doing before me), {ci ji'i vo} means "three or four" as in a
> number that's somewhere around 3 and 4. The way in which this differs from
> CLL is that I treat {ji'i} like {su'o} et al. in that it breaks up number
> strings. For example:
>
>    (1a) su'o ci su'e mu
>         "at least three at most five"
>
> This is a number made up of two parts: {su'o ci} and {su'e mu}, implicitly
> connected by {.e}, so (1a) is the same as (1b):
>
>    (1b) vei su'o ci .e su'o mu
>        "at least three and at most five"
>
> (The {vei} will hopefully become unecessary soon)
>
> Another example, using {ro}:
>
>    (2) ro ci lo gerku
>        "all three of the dogs"
>
> And (2a) is again the same as (2b):
>
>    (2b) vei ro .e ci lo gerku
>         "all of the dogs and three of the dogs"
>
> (Since Lojban quantifiers are exact, this entails that {ro} equals {ci}.)
>
> So, having multiple number strings adjacent to each other means the same
> as connecting them with {.e}, except when {.e} is not applicable, in which
> case it is {.a}.
>
> Now, the CLL wants {ji'i} to appear as a normal digit inside a larger
> number, but I agree with xorxes that this is confusing. Parsing numbers on
> the fly is already difficult, because you need to hear up to three digits
> before you know where they all go and unlike {su'o} et al., {ji'i} doesn't
> break up the number grouping, which makes it even harder to parse. So I
> like to use {ji'i} more like {su'o}/{za'u}/{su'e}/{me'i}/...
>
> {ci ji'i vo} is actually a shortcut for (3):
>
>     (3) ji'i ci ji'i vo
>         "about three [and] about four"
>         "somewhere around three or four"
>
> With an implicit {.e} connecting them.
>
> You may ask how to get the CLL meanings of {ci ji'i vo}. My answer to that
> question is to use {su'i}:
>
>     (4) vei ci no su'i ji'i vo
>         "[exactly] thirty plus approximately four"
>
> (again, the {vei} is just as unnecessary as the {ku} in {ku joi} was)
>
> So the CLL meaning is by no means inaccessible, while {ji'i} becomes more
> usable and numbers become saner to humans.
>
> mi'e la selpa'i mu'o
>
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>In any case, can someone please document that online =
in whatever the appropriate place is? I don&#39;t think the mailing list ar=
chives are good enough for this.<br><br></div>mu&#39;o<br>mi&#39;e .asiz.<b=
r>
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 12 J=
anuary 2014 16:08, selpa&#39;i <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sela=
dwa@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">seladwa@gmx.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex">
la .iesk. cu cusku di&#39;e<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hello Selpa&#39;i,<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Hello.<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
do you use {ji&#39;i} in a sense different from what CLL has?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Yes, slightly.<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I don&#39;t know the English source text, but from context it seems<br>
implausible that there are &#39;ca. 34 chairs&#39; (&#39;30-and-circa-4 cha=
irs&#39;)<br>
in the farm house, which is how I normally understand {lo ci ji&#39;i vo<br=
>
stizu}.<br>
<br>
Does {ci ji&#39;i vo} mean &#39;three to four&#39; or something like that i=
n the<br>
Oz text? If so, could you explain if that is the usual meaning of<br>
{ji&#39;i} (in which case I have been misunderstanding CLL) or a deviant<br=
>
usage?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
The way I use {ji&#39;i} (and I don&#39;t want to take credit for something=
 xorxes has been doing before me), {ci ji&#39;i vo} means &quot;three or fo=
ur&quot; as in a number that&#39;s somewhere around 3 and 4. The way in whi=
ch this differs from CLL is that I treat {ji&#39;i} like {su&#39;o} et al. =
in that it breaks up number strings. For example:<br>

<br>
=A0 =A0(1a) su&#39;o ci su&#39;e mu<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 &quot;at least three at most five&quot;<br>
<br>
This is a number made up of two parts: {su&#39;o ci} and {su&#39;e mu}, imp=
licitly connected by {.e}, so (1a) is the same as (1b):<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0(1b) vei su&#39;o ci .e su&#39;o mu<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0&quot;at least three and at most five&quot;<br>
<br>
(The {vei} will hopefully become unecessary soon)<br>
<br>
Another example, using {ro}:<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0(2) ro ci lo gerku<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0&quot;all three of the dogs&quot;<br>
<br>
And (2a) is again the same as (2b):<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0(2b) vei ro .e ci lo gerku<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 &quot;all of the dogs and three of the dogs&quot;<br>
<br>
(Since Lojban quantifiers are exact, this entails that {ro} equals {ci}.)<b=
r>
<br>
So, having multiple number strings adjacent to each other means the same as=
 connecting them with {.e}, except when {.e} is not applicable, in which ca=
se it is {.a}.<br>
<br>
Now, the CLL wants {ji&#39;i} to appear as a normal digit inside a larger n=
umber, but I agree with xorxes that this is confusing. Parsing numbers on t=
he fly is already difficult, because you need to hear up to three digits be=
fore you know where they all go and unlike {su&#39;o} et al., {ji&#39;i} do=
esn&#39;t break up the number grouping, which makes it even harder to parse=
. So I like to use {ji&#39;i} more like {su&#39;o}/{za&#39;u}/{su&#39;e}/{m=
e&#39;i}/..<u></u>.<br>

<br>
{ci ji&#39;i vo} is actually a shortcut for (3):<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0 (3) ji&#39;i ci ji&#39;i vo<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 &quot;about three [and] about four&quot;<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 &quot;somewhere around three or four&quot;<br>
<br>
With an implicit {.e} connecting them.<br>
<br>
You may ask how to get the CLL meanings of {ci ji&#39;i vo}. My answer to t=
hat question is to use {su&#39;i}:<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0 (4) vei ci no su&#39;i ji&#39;i vo<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 &quot;[exactly] thirty plus approximately four&quot;<br>
<br>
(again, the {vei} is just as unnecessary as the {ku} in {ku joi} was)<br>
<br>
So the CLL meaning is by no means inaccessible, while {ji&#39;i} becomes mo=
re usable and numbers become saner to humans.<br>
<br>
mi&#39;e la selpa&#39;i mu&#39;o<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br=
>
<br>
<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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