Received: from localhost ([::1]:57278 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YDige-00087e-U4; Tue, 20 Jan 2015 15:58:20 -0800 Received: from mail-wg0-f44.google.com ([74.125.82.44]:62531) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YDigY-00087Y-GR for llg-members@lojban.org; Tue, 20 Jan 2015 15:58:18 -0800 Received: by mail-wg0-f44.google.com with SMTP id z12so4109515wgg.3 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 2015 15:58:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9POib4wRzR5VQv3QPzVUYv+F86eqPgYSasFBTtDUfNk=; b=Mxl+VHIC5TQl8Oi9ua4fh0+muzDIYHzzXFl76Gw5PncaozywyYvgK+d9TOPLUboVzF QBAko2ieZq+4E5gTM74w//7IIt+jTXa6PYoS7HtkD3+nxiO8yarNXpAmoj29UBCIk8j+ PBxFFuiL27w4pKz0y2SL0/LEKJvW2dJZRtbZxwclmT8bMk5x9cGkPVMTtGPi/rlA0Pzw gPqUeX0ajYXizmfbpjFj0WJe2emumMCXnvhTCR+xT7uxRuS/9yAwk0JvlIFQAnn73ZYg lB7aqPrqLOcMop8dJptEPCUNXyU8i86rwW9L/Es6U1rXK07WetC+RxahBFh6OeDyar64 k0cA== X-Received: by 10.180.87.228 with SMTP id bb4mr17513694wib.71.1421798287572; Tue, 20 Jan 2015 15:58:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.208] ([2.31.159.3]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id lq5sm3148713wjb.35.2015.01.20.15.58.06 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 20 Jan 2015 15:58:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <54BEEB8F.7090301@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 23:58:07 +0000 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120711 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: llg-members@lojban.org References: <0CD5A578A47549238B8B046A01B8846C@gmail.com> <54BCF147.1080803@lojban.org> <54BCFC70.2010805@selpahi.de> <54BE62C4.3070807@lojban.org> <7fc6ca23f1c5cde9ad4aabe72c248ea9.squirrel@www.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <7fc6ca23f1c5cde9ad4aabe72c248ea9.squirrel@www.ccil.org> X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.7 X-Spam_score_int: 7 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: cowan@ccil.org, On 20/01/2015 22:46: > And Rosta scripsit: > >> I make only the obvious and essentially incontrovertible claim that the >> authors of the formal grammars knew something about formal grammars; > > What they knew was procedural: *how* to write a formal grammar. That's > not the same as knowing *about* formal grammars. Neither JCB, lojbab, > or me knows much *about* formal grammars. [...] Content analysis details: (0.7 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 2.7 DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL RBL: Envelope sender listed in dnsbl.ahbl.org [listed in gmail.com.rhsbl.ahbl.org. IN] [A] 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. 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[URIs: ccil.org] -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3 RBL: Good reputation (+3) [74.125.82.44 listed in wl.mailspike.net] -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (and.rosta[at]gmail.com) -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL Mailspike good senders Subject: Re: [Llg-members] nu ningau so'u se jbovlaste / updating a few jbovlaste entries X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org cowan@ccil.org, On 20/01/2015 22:46: > And Rosta scripsit: > >> I make only the obvious and essentially incontrovertible claim that the >> authors of the formal grammars knew something about formal grammars; > > What they knew was procedural: *how* to write a formal grammar. That's > not the same as knowing *about* formal grammars. Neither JCB, lojbab, > or me knows much *about* formal grammars. I am not accusing anybody of being an authority on formal grammars qua, say, mathematical objects, or indeed of knowing anything more about them than what is required to know how to write them. What I mean to claim is that the creators of Lojban had more of a background in computer science than in linguistics, and hence more of a familiarity with computer science's understanding of what a "language" and "grammar" is, than with linguistics's. The CS notions are way easier to grasp than the linguistics ones, so it is perfectly possible that the creators had, say, read many more books in linguistics than in CS, but nevertheless relied, when trying to formalize grammar, on CS notions because of their greater familiarity and grockability. It's also the case that the CS notions look pretty much like American Structuralist notions of the same, so anybody learning their linguistics under American Structuralism or from American Structuralist textbooks would have discerned no incongruence between CS's and linguistics's notions. In this the creators were not being dim-witted or much more obtuse than the prevailing state of knowledge was; when Loglan was born, grammar was far more ill-understood than it is today, and even today we don't have enough of a settled understanding of grammar that we can lay it out clearly and uncontroversially in a book for the intelligent layperson. --And. _______________________________________________ Llg-members mailing list Llg-members@lojban.org http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members