Received: from localhost ([::1]:57894 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1a9XgI-0006o1-Ei; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 04:29:14 -0800 Received: from mail-wm0-f43.google.com ([74.125.82.43]:33724) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1a9XgB-0006nk-JM for llg-members@lojban.org; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 04:29:12 -0800 Received: by mail-wm0-f43.google.com with SMTP id p187so20995722wmp.0 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 04:29:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=0zLJdID/e/NXLNUF8Gn6LWDk15b2Mj6br2xbW6wUzr0=; b=LhWNxa6nhUurI1UE1SsYuU6eBDz4qZISPeG+jfnHcPYsAnnE81T5S9oKJoqRAj22q5 oMlPphUlVQXgA2eo8HenfnEuwTHOdJ+T0uw8H+2UrNZppNDy3qvtfJvd/54h34HXKc2i CLSyU7EslHaWjMB4w6HJTjqAcz3hIQnJ8/7f4fNNLxxwtqYFhy8dYFqptQBTKceKWJWS ZwFWbH2rughXvPbqpJIcg1YKrUqPtfHYSbgSenjsI6t30hs7zhFTefCJLNRyNf/J0ONi WETy+ToGdpyHAl1GmvY2VKvJKhNlKlBUtZJsBtJgx8I+AnJfAJ2lOLMcVNYSuqwtRHH2 qzrQ== X-Received: by 10.194.63.238 with SMTP id j14mr63891328wjs.172.1450355340624; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 04:29:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.74.105 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 04:28:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <563CBDA4.5080308@selpahi.de> <4E514785-A922-4D75-B34A-EFB3880C5712@gmail.com> <566701E3.4060408@lojban.org> <566CD949.7010504@lojban.org> <5671E710.2020407@lojban.org> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 15:28:20 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] 2015 Annual Meeting X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0406182490535845220==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============0406182490535845220== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b86d5d0e04d560527172a98 --047d7b86d5d0e04d560527172a98 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2015-12-17 15:01 GMT+03:00 guskant : > 2015-12-17 7:00 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna : > > > > > > 2015-12-17 6:26 GMT+03:00 guskant : > >> > >> 1. Gleki suggested the creator of Lojban version of the brower Vivaldi > >> to use an experimental cmavo "la'oi" without warning of > >> "experimental". > > > > > > I don't know where you got this information from. It is at least phrased > > incorrectly. > > It is not related to me. Simply the localization string doesn't allow for > > using {la'o zoi ... zoi}. The localization string is simply "Search", not > > "Search %1". > > You can join Transifex Vivaldi team and see it yourself. It's just not > > possible to insert {zoi} AFTER the name of the search engine. > > I'm not going to ask the developers to change that because it's more > likely > > that they remove Lojban at all rather than adopt our change. > > > > You said on the main list: > > 2015-03-16 16:42 GMT+00:00 la gleki : > > Vivaldi is a new web browser that is right now at the stage of alpha > > testing. > > > > You may install it as your second browser and try Lojban localization. > > > https://vivaldi.net/en-US/blogs/teamblog/item/15-weekly-snapshot-1-0-129-2 > > > > Select Lojban while installing or do that after the installation in > > "Settings". > > You should take into account the following considerations: > > > > * the translation hasn't been tested yet > > * while translating I tried not to use new words where possible and > where I > > couldn't I resorted to zi'evla/fu'ivla but not lujvo since jvajvo/cimjvo > and > > lujvo place structure rants impede Lojban development. > > > > Isn't it mean that you translated the search engine into {la'oi} clause? > If it is technically difficult to add {zoi}, you could chose not to > translate it. > > It's a technical problem, it's not possible for me or you or any other contributor to do anything. The localization string doesn't have a mergefield for the name of the search engine. I could choose not to translate it, yes. But then it'd be "search Google" instead of {sisku sepi'o la'oi Google}. I don't know what is better. Let the community decide. They need to change the code and after that change the localization string on Transifex but as I explained I'm reluctant to do so. They have already eliminated Ido and Esperanto. If something isn't clear you can always contact me directly via e-mail or IRC to get ultimate explanations. > > > >> 2. Gleki removed the words "culturally neutral" from the top page of > >> Lojban website. > > > > > > Indeed, I periodically get some negative feedback or questions and when > no > > one seem to answer them I remove corresponding strings. > > This has happened to the Wikipedia article where I removed or commented > out > > everything that was not supported by any sources (on the other hand I > added > > many more previously absent concepts they *were* supported by sources). > > This sometimes happens to the front page. I'm just trying apply the same > > policy as exists for Wikipedia in general. > > > > > > So for this particular issue I suggest using BPFK to solve it. I'm > curious > > myself how is Lojban culturaly neutral when it creates its own culture > and > > when historically it was a culturally non neutral Eaton's list > representing > > a subset of Standard Average European Sprachbund. > > > > > You could suggest it on byfy list before removing the words, but you > didn't. > Don't you anticipate some of your devoting activities could be taken > as self-righteous? > Well, for many years I asked people to work on the wiki and very few replied. I also changed or improved amny pages. I wasn't aware that BPFK was in charge of editing the front page. So if you propose to lock that page for changes only approved by BPFK then I think it's a good proposal. Shall you post to byfy. list? > > > > >> 3. Gleki advertised some derivations of Lojban as "Lojban", while he > >> did some other derivations that are unpleasant to him as "non-Lojban". > > > > > > Well, not sure what you mean but what has been advertised as Lojban, > which > > in reality is not? > > I'm writing some tutorials and the only source and feedback for them is > YOU, > > Lojbanic community. > > Of course when two conflicting opinions clash I have either to avoid > them or > > to merge them into one or to choose one of them. > > > > I have too few my own opinions to advertise them as my own. I'm just not > > interested in supporting any opinions. My main goal is a learnable usable > > language no matter what that language is. I mostly ask questions, pack > them > > into articles or parts of textbooks and wait for feedback. > > > > Of course, the result can be that some reply "Why did you choose others' > > opinion, not my?" > > If you have some questions you are free to ask them, to propose solutions > > like many other people have already done. > > > > I'M NOT TO ADVERTISE OR PROMOTE ANY STILL PROJECTS. > > But I'm to promote constantly self-updating urls. > > If you provide feedback then these urls will change after your proposals > and > > suggestions. > > > > > > You advertise your Crash Course and La Bangu as Lojban to every new > learner on IRC, twitter, facebook True. But what am I supposed to advertise? I used to advertise CLL and people were returning saying "I don't understand". Same for Lojban for Beginners. After reading the crash course many of them had another experience. CLL is not for everybody. Neither is the crash course. I'm not promoting single solutions. Exactly for this very reason I made a rival "Lojban in simply phrases" set of slides. 'd be happy to advertise something else for English speakers but that something else just isn't coming. If I stop working I will of course stop getting any complaints. Is this what you want? You just said you were pessimistic about non-English communities. But even for English-speaking world the situation is bad. So I think we share a common interest in promoting Lojban as a learnable language. And to sovle that issue I'm working on educational resources. The concept of the crash course was constantly changing with every new edit. E.g. some people didn't like {mi'ai}, but some liked. I can't please anyone. The only solution would be a singularity, i.e. no Lojban at all in any form. No perfect educational resource is possible. Even the most recent changes are related to the core of Lojban, xorlo. And your page is also helping in that. , and so on, often using the > lojban.org account, with which you can pretend that your declaration > were official oh, hm, I only asked for bangu@lojban.org account in case someone couldn't send to gmail accounts. You know private e-mail boxes are in some ways less vulnerable for mailing services. That was the only reason to change to @ lojban.org address. As of now I can't think of other solutions. But you have a point. I already changed to the gmail address in the crash course. For other pages I'm retaining it because other pages are not related to the crash course. , while you declare about my series of experimental > parsers that "ja'o lo guskanbau cu banzu frica lo jbobau". I really wish I had never said that :( or added {zo'o} to that. I didn't mean that phrase to be public forgetting that everything in Lojban was logged. As for comparison to the crash course I have hard time trying to reconcile opinions of those who provide me with solutions. I was even against xorlo reform. Because it had devastating effects on the desire of newcomers to learn aything. Maybe indeed the crash course isn't Lojban either since it doesn't directly derive itself from CLL but instead from how others understand it. The > contents of your course don't include your own opinions, but it is you > who selected the unofficial features to be taught in it. I tried others to get involved but ... as usual. So after that I stopped asking anyone. And yes, of course I have a dice and roll it when a choice is to be made. Sometimes I can roll it in several months to see if it gives a new value. > I don't think > a course could include all the conflict unofficial features, and I > don't demand you to stop your selection. I pointed out only your > unfairness of treating various derivations from official Lojban. > Okay, I will try to fix myself. > > > >> > >> > >> (As for 2, I don't think either that Lojban _is_ culturally neutral, but > >> at > >> least we could aim at it as an ideal, and the words are still worth > >> mentioning on the top > >> page.) > > > > > > So that's not about Lojban but about some trend in its lexicon or > grammar? > > That might be worth adding provided that a corresponding article about > this > > trend exists. Otherwise people start to think (not without any ground) > that > > Lojbanic community is lying. > > > As I wrote above, you could post it on a list before removing it, but > you didn't. > > mu'o mi'e la guskant > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > --047d7b86d5d0e04d560527172a98 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-12-17 15:01 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com><= /span>:
2015-12-17 7:00 = GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna <= gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>:
>
>
> 2015-12-17 6:26 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>:
>>
>> 1. Gleki suggested the creator of Lojban v= ersion of the brower Vivaldi
>> to use an experimental cmavo "la'oi" without warning= of
>> "experimental".
>
>
> I don't know where you got this information from. It is at least p= hrased
> incorrectly.
> It is not related to me. Simply the localization string doesn't al= low for
> using {la'o zoi ... zoi}. The localization string is simply "= Search", not
> "Search %1".
> You can join Transifex Vivaldi team and see it yourself. It's just= not
> possible to insert {zoi} AFTER the name of the search engine.
> I'm not going to ask the developers to change that because it'= s more likely
> that they remove Lojban at all rather than adopt our change.
>

You said on the main list:

2015-03-16 16:42 GMT+00:00 la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>:
> Vivaldi is a new web browser that is right now at the stage of alpha > testing.
>
> You may install it as your second browser and try Lojban localization.=
> https://vivaldi.net/e= n-US/blogs/teamblog/item/15-weekly-snapshot-1-0-129-2
>
> Select Lojban while installing or do that after the installation in > "Settings".
> You should take into account the following considerations:
>
> * the translation hasn't been tested yet
> * while translating I tried not to use new words where possible and wh= ere I
> couldn't I resorted to zi'evla/fu'ivla but not lujvo since= jvajvo/cimjvo and
> lujvo place structure rants impede Lojban development.
>

Isn't it mean that you translated the search engine into {la'oi} cl= ause?
If it is technically difficult to add {zoi}, you could chose not to
translate it.


It's a tec= hnical problem, it's not possible for me or you or any other contributo= r to do anything. The localization string doesn't have a mergefield for= the name of the search engine.

I could choose not= to translate it, yes. But then it'd be "search Google" inste= ad of {sisku sepi'o la'oi Google}. I don't know what is better.= Let the community decide.

They need to change the= code and after that change the localization string on Transifex but as I e= xplained I'm reluctant to do so. They have already eliminated Ido and E= speranto.

If something isn't clear you can alw= ays contact me directly via e-mail or IRC to get ultimate explanations.


>
>> 2. Gleki removed the words "culturally neutral" from the= top page of
>> Lojban website.
>
>
> Indeed, I periodically get some negative feedback or questions and whe= n no
> one seem to answer them I remove corresponding strings.
> This has happened to the Wikipedia article where I removed or commente= d out
> everything that was not supported by any sources (on the other hand I = added
> many more previously absent concepts they *were* supported by sources)= .
> This sometimes happens to the front page. I'm just trying apply th= e same
> policy as exists for Wikipedia in general.
>
>
> So for this particular issue I suggest using BPFK to solve it. I'm= curious
> myself how is Lojban culturaly neutral when it creates its own culture= and
> when historically it was a culturally non neutral Eaton's list rep= resenting
> a subset of Standard Average European Sprachbund.
>


You could suggest it on byfy list before removing the words, but you= didn't.
Don't you anticipate some of your devoting activities could be taken as self-righteous?

Well, for many years= I asked people to work on the wiki and very few replied. I also changed or= improved amny pages.

I wasn't aware that BPFK= was in charge of editing the front page.
So if you propose to lo= ck that page for changes only approved by BPFK then I think it's a good= proposal.
Shall you post to byfy. list?=C2=A0



>> 3. Gleki advertised some derivations of Lojban as "Lojban&quo= t;, while he
>> did some other derivations that are unpleasant to him as "non= -Lojban".
>
>
> Well, not sure what you mean but what has been advertised as Lojban, w= hich
> in reality is not?
> I'm writing some tutorials and the only source and feedback for th= em is YOU,
> Lojbanic community.
> Of course when two conflicting opinions clash I have either to avoid t= hem or
> to merge them into one or to choose one of them.
>
> I have too few my own opinions to advertise them as my own. I'm ju= st not
> interested in supporting any opinions. My main goal is a learnable usa= ble
> language no matter what that language is. I mostly ask questions, pack= them
> into articles or parts of textbooks and wait for feedback.
>
> Of course, the result can be that some reply "Why did you choose = others'
> opinion, not my?"
> If you have some questions you are free to ask them, to propose soluti= ons
> like many other people have already done.
>
> I'M NOT TO ADVERTISE OR PROMOTE ANY STILL PROJECTS.
> But I'm to promote constantly self-updating urls.
> If you provide feedback then these urls will change after your proposa= ls and
> suggestions.
>
>

You advertise your Crash Course and La Bangu as Lojban to every new<= br> learner on IRC, twitter, facebook

True. But= what am I supposed to advertise? I used to advertise CLL and people were r= eturning saying "I don't understand". Same for Lojban for Beg= inners.
After reading the crash course many of them had another e= xperience.
CLL is not for everybody. Neither is the crash course.=

I'm not promoting single solutions. Exactly f= or this very reason I made a rival "Lojban in simply phrases" set= of slides.


'd be happy to adve= rtise something else for English speakers but that something else just isn&= #39;t coming.

If I stop working I will of course s= top getting any complaints. Is this what you want?

You just said you were pessimistic about non-English communities. But even= for English-speaking world the situation is bad. So I think we share a com= mon interest in promoting Lojban as a learnable language. And to sovle that= issue I'm working on educational resources.

T= he concept of the crash course was constantly changing with every new edit.=

E.g. some people didn't like {mi'ai}, but= some liked. I can't please anyone. The only solution would be a singul= arity, i.e. no Lojban at all in any form. No perfect educational resource i= s possible.

Even the most recent changes are relat= ed to the core of Lojban, xorlo. And your page is also helping in that.


, and so on,= often using the
lojban.o= rg account, with which you can pretend that your declaration
were official

oh, hm, I only asked for bangu@lojban.org account in case someon= e couldn't send to gmail accounts. You know private e-mail boxes are in= some ways less vulnerable for mailing services. That was the only reason t= o change to @lojban.org address. As of no= w I can't think of other solutions. But you have a point. I already cha= nged to the gmail address in the crash course. For other pages I'm reta= ining it because other pages are not related to the crash course.


, while you declar= e about my series of experimental
parsers that "ja'o lo guskanbau cu banzu frica lo jbobau".

I really wish I had never said that :( or add= ed {zo'o} to that. I didn't mean that phrase to be public forgettin= g that everything in Lojban was logged.
As for comparison to the = crash course I have hard time trying to reconcile opinions of those who pro= vide me with solutions. I was even against xorlo reform. Because it had dev= astating effects on the desire of newcomers to learn aything. Maybe indeed = the crash course isn't Lojban either since it doesn't directly deri= ve itself from CLL but instead from how others understand it.

The
contents of your course don't include your own opinions, but it is you<= br> who selected the unofficial features to be taught in it.
<= br>
I tried others to get involved but ... as usual. So after tha= t I stopped asking anyone.
And yes, of course I have a dice and r= oll it when a choice is to be made. Sometimes I can roll it in several mont= hs to see if it gives a new value.

=C2=A0
I don't think
a course could include all the conflict unofficial features, and I
don't demand you to stop your selection. I pointed out only your
unfairness of treating various derivations from official Lojban.

Okay, I will try to fix myself.
=C2=A0<= /div>


>>
>>
>> (As for 2, I don't think either that Lojban _is_ culturally ne= utral, but
>> at
>> least we could aim at it as an ideal, and the words are still wort= h
>> mentioning on the top
>> page.)
>
>
> So that's not about Lojban but about some trend in its lexicon or = grammar?
> That might be worth adding provided that=C2=A0 a corresponding article= about this
> trend exists. Otherwise people start to think (not without any ground)= that
> Lojbanic community is lying.


As I wrote above, you could post it on a list before removing it, bu= t
you didn't.

mu'o mi'e la guskant

_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-membe= rs

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