Received: from localhost ([::1]:33146 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aBpct-0006Dr-MZ; Wed, 23 Dec 2015 12:03:11 -0800 Received: from mail-vk0-f65.google.com ([209.85.213.65]:36659) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aBpcn-0006DZ-P1 for llg-members@lojban.org; Wed, 23 Dec 2015 12:03:09 -0800 Received: by mail-vk0-f65.google.com with SMTP id a185so8798804vkb.3 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2015 12:03:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=UVRwCbUbNGIMYiEbtYAyjAVCburu01k2RQZk5FPhGj0=; b=ifvI/V48QNLX7VpzSbRLJzA7e9DXpft3w/IcxadMmj0woFzv47CsJ1kAj4VLNz5VbU uZWTn42TXq1rcTuFoLVQ8IybQ72qvGY68HYOXIzRfyY3yhxgocSq095+vBVwIQqkhYoo aGomaTTfYid8MzeFjNJq9bNr4fIYExZEqqMI4yTmK3dpYNRdB2EoCAnHQsYQg873teHr kAvyawmo/GfdtWycuCSnf6obJPLHfYlieHsmrBLZoKAok3YAY4UHR2q7FbW+3DEsSuHk tC54GSLAsszYms+04wk0tR9GIL6xaAxRA3nSGWPkpJXg57WDemtPo0y46R9vG3WitZ/w EoIQ== X-Received: by 10.31.190.211 with SMTP id o202mr21963586vkf.100.1450900979612; Wed, 23 Dec 2015 12:02:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.31.161.17 with HTTP; Wed, 23 Dec 2015 12:02:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <563CBDA4.5080308@selpahi.de> <4E514785-A922-4D75-B34A-EFB3880C5712@gmail.com> <566701E3.4060408@lojban.org> <566CD949.7010504@lojban.org> <5671E710.2020407@lojban.org> From: Alex Burka Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 15:02:40 -0500 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - Subject: Re: [Llg-members] 2015 Annual Meeting X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4754544170532852625==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============4754544170532852625== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11439cd07e839805279635aa --001a11439cd07e839805279635aa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 1:55 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > > 2015-12-22 22:55 GMT+03:00 Alex Burka : > >> (Karen, we only received the first sentence of your post.) >> >> Here are my fragmented thoughts about what LLG should do in the coming >> year(s): >> >> - I agree that we should leave language definition issues to BPFK. They >> are better equipped because the predominant language of discussion is (at >> least recently) Lojban, and due to the 2014 rechartering which allows it to >> make useful decisions *without* making a political claim of the form "X >> is Lojban and Y is not". >> >> - Lojban has a publicity problem. Not enough people know about the >> language, which means the pool of potential learners/speakers is too small. >> One way that LLG can combat this is to facilitate people doing publicity >> and outreach. This could be done by simply paying them, or providing >> funding for advertising campaigns (could include startup funds for things >> that would eventually make the LLG money, like selling books and >> merchandise) >> > > Well, I'd disagree about that for the current epoch when there are no good > books in English. > > People can't learn Lojban and the only reason for that is the lack of > learning resources. > The only way to master fluency is either to join the main chat or to get > paid lessons. > Of course, selling books would also involve writing the books to be sold, or updating old ones :) But I'm not sure I agree that the only problem is lack of learning sources. I also did not refer to solely English books. > > So any advertising campaign a la Esperanto would be a waste of time, > financial resources and would even be dangerous. > > One example is xorlo which for 12 years has been impeding the development > of Lojban (and still doing so) breaking earlier promises for a stable > language. > Seems to me you defeat your own claim since xorlo has been with us for 12 years and is as official as the rest. > > This might not be applied to e.g. Japanese learning resources, which i > just can't assess. > > >> , providing them with server space, sending them to conferences, etc. >> Another thing I think would help is partnerships/coordination with other >> groups! The LCS (Language Creation Society) is one example. In their recent >> meeting they talked about their lending library and I think we should give >> them a CLL1.1 to put in there (and a CLL2 as soon as it's ready, of course). >> > > And something more learnable because at their Conlangery podcast they > literally laughed at CLL not being able to understand what is lujvo. > Sure. More resources are always good. > > And it's not just they. "Talk:Lojban grammar" page in Wikipedia also has a > similar observation. Lojban grammar is described in pseudo-English and > enigmatic (might no longer be the case since I've edited that wikipedia > article). > > I'd rather say that Lojban is very far from linguistics, even polyglots > and professional linguists can't understand CLL. > > > We should make sure we have ongoing contact with groups such as nooLearn >> who are trying to build things with Lojban. LLG presumably needs to appoint >> a point person for such coordinations, or assign one of the officers to >> manage communications. >> >> - Lojban also has an inertia problem. Many projects plod along slowly >> (e.g. CLL, though recent progress has been very encouraging) or get started >> but never finished (e.g. the proficiency test >> > > Proficiency test is unavailable because there could not be any judges. > And nowadays the second problem still persists, namely, shouldn't it be in > some interactive electronic form. > This is pretty much exactly my point. We know the blockers but we don't have people with the free time and/or self-motivation to push through them. So maybe introducing some external motivation would help. This is separate from a judgment on whether I think a proficiency test is a good idea; I was just mentioning an example of a stalled project. > > > >> , printed dictionary, L4B >> > > Hasn't L4B been published? > Er, not actually on paper, right? And it hasn't been updated since the CLL1 was published. I expect this will be incorporated into the ongoing CLL2 project. > > >> ). This is quite understandable (and I fault myself here as well of >> course) because initial design work is much more fun than necessary grunt >> work. Merely exhorting people to work on things doesn't really work. >> Perhaps monetary rewards for completion of milestones on important >> projects, essentially a bounty system, could help? >> > > Yes, I already suggested that instead of spending money on currently > unproductive Logfests. > > CLL2 and the proficiency test would be examples. >> >> - This has come up ad nauseum before, but most of our official online >> presence runs from a server (two servers?) in Robin's basement, AFAIK. I am >> *not* suggesting that he does a bad job of managing this. However, if >> Robin wants to transition away from this role, it seems very reasonable for >> LLG to pay for some (virtual) server infrastructure and hire someone to >> administer it. I can help with this if we go that route. >> > > I should say that for the last two months I forgot about Robin because the > servers became superstable. > > But yes, virtual hosting without payments for the actual load on it (since > we don't know the actual load) might be desirable in future. > > >> - Jbonunsla attendance is indeed a problem. I was there this year and it >> was fun but we did not have a critical mass. >> > > You didn't even report what was going on there. Has anyone but la tsani > spoke fluent Lojban? > If no reports then by default one is to assume that it was useless. > There is in fact a report on the wiki . (I didn't write it myself.) Why are you being so hostile? > > > There are a couple of ways we could get more attendance. The problem is >> that the Lojban communities are highly geographically decentralized. One >> possibility is awarding travel grants, but this could easily blow through >> the bank account in a year or two. I think a more sustainable idea is to >> change jbonunsla to more of an online conference model. Workshops and >> discussions can be held over videoconference and recorded for posterity. >> > > Or maybe just no physical conferences until more important problems are > fixed. > > >> >> - In the last meeting we talked about facilitating communication between >> disparate Lojban communities, but nothing really got started. I strongly >> believe this is important for the future of the language. LLG may need to >> pay some natlang translators to get this off the ground >> > > yes, after there is something to translate. And this is a huge problem > since people need to immediately find parallels of patterns from their > native language in Lojban. One cannot just translate existing resources > into languages that are far from Standard Average European because a lot of > would be missed. > Probably true, but I was thinking more that translators might be needed to translate emails or other communications between the members of different communities who do not have natlangs in common and are not yet good enough in Lojban to use it as the main language of communication. Also, for making resources in such languages we should talk to people fluent in them (e.g. ... translators) to learn about their idioms and patterns. > > In our recent project on fast populating Tatoeba.org with examples I noted > that Lojban by now is almost a relex of English (.ui dai for machine > translation and .ui nai for Lojban community). > Don't know what you mean by this at all. > > >> , until enough people in each community are proficient enough in Lojban. >> An online jbonunsla (kibjbonunsla?) should contribute to this by having >> more international participation. >> > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > --001a11439cd07e839805279635aa Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 1:55 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <<= a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.= name@gmail.com> wrote:


= 2015-12-22 22:55 GMT+03:00 Alex Burka &l= t;durka42@gmail.com<= /a>>:
(Ka= ren, we only received the first sentence of your post.)

<= /div>
Here are my fragmented thoughts about what LLG should do in the c= oming year(s):

- I agree that we should leave language = definition issues to BPFK. They are better equipped because the predominant= language of discussion is (at least recently) Lojban, and due to the 2014 = rechartering which allows it to make useful decisions without making= a political claim of the form "X is Lojban and Y is not".
- Lojban has a publicity problem. Not enough people know about= the language, which means the pool of potential learners/speakers is too s= mall. One way that LLG can combat this is to facilitate people doing public= ity and outreach. This could be done by simply paying them, or providing fu= nding for advertising campaigns (could include startup funds for things tha= t would eventually make the LLG money, like selling books and merchandise)<= /div>

=


So any advertising campaign a la Espe= ranto would be a waste of time, financial resources and would even be dange= rous.

One example is xorlo which for 12 years has = been impeding the development of Lojban (and still doing so) breaking earli= er promises for a stable language.

=
=

This might not be applied to= e.g. Japanese learning resources, which i just can't assess.
=
=C2=A0
, providing them with server space, sending them to conferenc= es, etc. Another thing I think would help is partnerships/coordination with= other groups! The LCS (Language Creation Society) is one example. In their= recent meeting they talked about their lending library and I think we shou= ld give them a CLL1.1 to put in there (and a CLL2 as soon as it's ready= , of course).

And someth= ing more learnable because at their Conlangery podcast they literally laugh= ed at CLL not being able to understand what is lujvo.

Sure. More resources are always good.
=C2=A0

And it&#= 39;s not just they. "Talk:Lojban grammar" page in Wikipedia also = has a similar observation. Lojban grammar is described in pseudo-English an= d enigmatic (might no longer be the case since I've edited that wikiped= ia article).

I'd rather say that Lojban is ver= y far from linguistics, even polyglots and professional linguists can't= understand CLL.


We should make sure we have= ongoing contact with groups such as nooLearn who are trying to build thing= s with Lojban. LLG presumably needs to appoint a point person for such coor= dinations, or assign one of the officers to manage communications.

- Lojban also has an inertia problem. Many projects plod a= long slowly (e.g. CLL, though recent progress has been very encouraging) or= get started but never finished (e.g. the proficiency test

Proficiency test is unavailable because = there could not be any judges.
And nowadays the second problem st= ill persists, namely, shouldn't it be in some interactive electronic fo= rm.

This is pretty = much exactly my point. We know the blockers but we don't have people wi= th the free time and/or self-motivation to push through them. So maybe intr= oducing some external motivation would help. This is separate from a judgme= nt on whether I think a proficiency test is a good idea; I was just mention= ing an example of a stalled project.
=C2=A0

=C2=A0
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
, printed dictionary, L4B


=C2=A0
). This is quite understandable (and I fault mysel= f here as well of course) because initial design work is much more fun than= necessary grunt work. Merely exhorting people to work on things doesn'= t really work. Perhaps monetary rewards for completion of milestones on imp= ortant projects, essentially a bounty system, could help?

Yes, I already suggested that instead of= spending money on currently unproductive Logfests.
<= div>
<= div>

The= re is in fact a report on the wiki. (I didn't write it myself.) Why are you being so ho= stile?
=C2=A0


There are a couple of ways we could get more attendance. The problem= is that the Lojban communities are highly geographically decentralized. On= e possibility is awarding travel grants, but this could easily blow through= the bank account in a year or two. I think a more sustainable idea is to c= hange jbonunsla to more of an online conference model. Workshops and discus= sions can be held over videoconference and recorded for posterity.

Or maybe just no physical confer= ences until more important problems are fixed.
= =C2=A0

=
- In the last meeting we talked about facilitating communication betwe= en disparate Lojban communities, but nothing really got started. I strongly= believe this is important for the future of the language. LLG may need to = pay some natlang translators to get this off the ground

yes, after there is something to translate.= And this is a huge problem since people need to immediately find parallels= of patterns from their native language in Lojban. One cannot just translat= e existing resources into languages that are far from Standard Average Euro= pean because a lot of would be missed.
=

Probably true, but I was thinking more that translators= might be needed to translate emails or other communications between the me= mbers of different communities who do not have natlangs in common and are n= ot yet good enough in Lojban to use it as the main language of communicatio= n. Also, for making resources in such languages we should talk to people fl= uent in them (e.g. ... translators) to learn about their idioms and pattern= s.
=C2=A0

In = our recent project on fast populating Tatoeba.org with examples I noted tha= t Lojban by now is almost a relex of English (.ui dai for machine translati= on and .ui nai for Lojban community).
<= div>
Don't know what you mean by this at all.
= =C2=A0
=C2=A0
, until enough people in= each community are proficient enough in Lojban. An online jbonunsla (kibjb= onunsla?) should contribute to this by having more international participat= ion.

_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-membe= rs


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