Received: from localhost ([::1]:41136 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aGd4f-0004sG-GX; Tue, 05 Jan 2016 17:39:41 -0800 Received: from mail-wm0-f48.google.com ([74.125.82.48]:38671) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aGd4Y-0004rM-9Q for llg-members@lojban.org; Tue, 05 Jan 2016 17:39:39 -0800 Received: by mail-wm0-f48.google.com with SMTP id b14so55153439wmb.1 for ; Tue, 05 Jan 2016 17:39:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=C1WaFkuGtNOxI6JpH3s1uQNo8T6u0qlXxoshplurH9I=; b=e8FfW4/2YX4nkFKi0QsIi+vn9grn91mAJZzraV/NysOLJviY0qr8l5MhFQ4bP6Ss9l 1TLEIEIQb+41JYY3vh8axhKjqr0nsvyL7Qks44qT/tjIaiJmZMD+tMZ4hayHhbSVgPNw lru8mEXbXTMfHzkL7ZZoWAgPjydDHkO2kgtbwVqi0IjWhEEVKyYdIcNFm+EdhiDXs0/C GPQTr41wMa33kQDEANAJgWivNIjMs7/wKYGpdpgZcYDflNMRnJFq6UUut5iFV9BZftZ4 CesajXKRYRi6SkBGdIyVbckHfE+tlPkdbU/a0oHDFGMTwvPHRM+S9zgkRzxcxhFukBrK mpWg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.79.201 with SMTP id l9mr116996503wjx.151.1452044367591; Tue, 05 Jan 2016 17:39:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.27.47.8 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Jan 2016 17:39:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <8417352.OZs0BEeQn5@caracal> References: <563CBDA4.5080308@selpahi.de> <9AC7ACDB-A395-4564-8340-20876DAB07CA@gmail.com> <8417352.OZs0BEeQn5@caracal> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 20:39:27 -0500 Message-ID: From: Curtis Franks To: "llg-members@lojban.org" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / Subject: Re: [Llg-members] 2015 Annual Meeting X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7025031287196821761==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============7025031287196821761== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bf0d0f6ba81cd0528a06c01 --047d7bf0d0f6ba81cd0528a06c01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 At the very least, each non-Lojban jargon word should be marked as such. These should also be given definitions and a footnote (basically a "note by the translator") that describes what these words mean and how they are to be understood- and which offers alternative descriptions that may be familiar to certain classes of people. A section at the end of the book which lists all of this information in one location (basically,a glossary or an index) would be helpful. Even better, this list of terms would give us things to translate; every important concept of or used in Lojban grammar should have a specific word in Lojban which means exactly it. If we create such a list in English, we can figure out which words have Lojban equivalents and which do not. We can even adopt the Lojban terms as THE terminology to be used in English discussions, once that terminology is developed. Thus, after an explanation of what "bridi" means in the CLL, we only use the term "bridi" and never use the word "predicate" unless we mean something wider than or completely separate to "bridi"; in the latter case, such usage should be explicit and the scope should be clear. Lojban words carry exactly the baggage that they should. In any case, we should probably avoid using the word "modal" specifically. It can be mentioned in the note that the new term used to be called "modals" in English discussions about this feature of Lojban, but we now use the new term. A warning should accompany this mention, stating that the word/use of "modal" has no relation to any other meaning thereof. On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 2:55 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Monday, December 28, 2015 20:34:36 Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > Note that although that is desirable we can't please everyone. > > It's imo indeed bad to use a pseudo-English terminology not matching > > established terminology neither in linguistics, nor in logic, nor in > > programming. > > In particular, the term "modal" is used in the CLL to mean a preposition > semantically derived from a brivla (or from "co'e" in the case of "do'e"). > In > linguistics, "modal" means words like "ka'e". > > I suggest that we find terms that have been used in grammars of languages > with > similar features. I don't know of any natlang that has an indefinitely long > series of argument places instead of a morphosyntactic alignment, but there > are other omnipredicative languages (not many), languages with quotatives > (e.g. Sanskrit, though only the end of a quotation is marked), and > languages > with predicate markers (e.g. Tok Pisin). > > I'd also like to see a grammar of Lojban in Lojban, aimed at schoolchildren > who already speak Lojban. > > Pierre > -- > Jews use a lunisolar calendar; Muslims use a solely lunar calendar. > > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > --047d7bf0d0f6ba81cd0528a06c01 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
At the very least, each non-Lojban jargon word should be m= arked as such.=C2=A0 These should also be given definitions and a footnote = (basically a "note by the translator") that describes what these = words mean and how they are to be understood- and which offers alternative = descriptions that may be familiar to certain classes of people. A section a= t the end of the book which lists all of this information in one location (= basically,a glossary or an index) would be helpful.

Even= better, this list of terms would give us things to translate; every import= ant concept of or used in Lojban grammar should have a specific word in Loj= ban which means exactly it. If we create such a list in English, we can fig= ure out which words have Lojban equivalents and which do not.=C2=A0 We can = even adopt the Lojban terms as THE terminology to be used in English discus= sions, once that terminology is developed. Thus, after an explanation of wh= at "bridi" means in the CLL, we only use the term "bridi&quo= t; and never use the word "predicate" unless we mean something wi= der than or completely separate to "bridi"; in the latter case, s= uch usage should be explicit and the scope should be clear.=C2=A0 Lojban wo= rds carry exactly the baggage that they should.

In any c= ase, we should probably avoid using the word "modal" specifically= . It can be mentioned in the note that the new term used to be called "= ;modals" in English discussions about this feature of Lojban, but we n= ow use the new term.=C2=A0 A warning should accompany this mention, stating= that the word/use of "modal" has no relation to any other meanin= g thereof.

On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 2:55 AM, Pierre Abbat = <phma@le= af.dragonflybsd.org> wrote:
On Monday, December 28, 2015 20:34:36 Gleki Arxokuna wrot= e:
> Note that although that is desirable we can't please everyone.
> It's imo indeed bad to use a pseudo-English terminology not matchi= ng
> established terminology neither in linguistics, nor in logic, nor in > programming.

In particular, the term "modal" is used in the CLL to mean= a preposition
semantically derived from a brivla (or from "co'e" in the cas= e of "do'e"). In
linguistics, "modal" means words like "ka'e".

I suggest that we find terms that have been used in grammars of languages w= ith
similar features. I don't know of any natlang that has an indefinitely = long
series of argument places instead of a morphosyntactic alignment, but there=
are other omnipredicative languages (not many), languages with quotatives (e.g. Sanskrit, though only the end of a quotation is marked), and language= s
with predicate markers (e.g. Tok Pisin).

I'd also like to see a grammar of Lojban in Lojban, aimed at schoolchil= dren
who already speak Lojban.

Pierre
--
Jews use a lunisolar calendar; Muslims use a solely lunar calendar.


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