Received: from localhost ([::1]:41320 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aGdVT-00079n-GY; Tue, 05 Jan 2016 18:07:23 -0800 Received: from mail-wm0-f46.google.com ([74.125.82.46]:33773) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aGdVM-00078q-M3 for llg-members@lojban.org; Tue, 05 Jan 2016 18:07:21 -0800 Received: by mail-wm0-f46.google.com with SMTP id f206so44197912wmf.0 for ; Tue, 05 Jan 2016 18:07:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=vHZ7PSvvTfnWqVHOGXRx87NIQFv8+0YvXh7aTckUOKE=; b=rtTDJGbQ3Kh6IANLguE3InObF0tL9FnfxJbS3MfuGTo9UwrWTXWwIPda2I5PAGkwyu dzzG6zSrTQiSG2GYL3J0VFLAT6jgaABsSGGkWwWTbq9JN3DuEaZ8gE3rmO8l6BHXb0l5 SayiTAZ81pkg3+8wtzehbpSjs4mAP8K37T9+cdKej6kuE3laUzP2l0jnuTTFhxRVdFQA sjB3lBGuv6ni7cw1yrNPRpiqSD90G9tARlKDoGaLuWdYCKlJdzD4WzzESitlYRtuuyIa QqowOwuJ30KTt4P5HjARsESUu8vDj4RtaN3qs3KVgr5gWoSy5bRQ3Y9c325pSHjB7EFt 2lFg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.103.234 with SMTP id fz10mr60481489wjb.31.1452046030161; Tue, 05 Jan 2016 18:07:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.27.47.8 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Jan 2016 18:07:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <563CBDA4.5080308@selpahi.de> <4E514785-A922-4D75-B34A-EFB3880C5712@gmail.com> <566701E3.4060408@lojban.org> <566CD949.7010504@lojban.org> <5671E710.2020407@lojban.org> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 21:07:09 -0500 Message-ID: From: Curtis Franks To: "llg-members@lojban.org" X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] 2015 Annual Meeting X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2390238065870238260==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============2390238065870238260== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bf109e6d3529f0528a0cf65 --047d7bf109e6d3529f0528a0cf65 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Alex Burka wrote: > (Karen, we only received the first sentence of your post.) > > > - Lojban has a publicity problem. Not enough people know about the > language, which means the pool of potential learners/speakers is too small. > One way that LLG can combat this is to facilitate people doing publicity > and outreach. This could be done by simply paying them, or providing > funding for advertising campaigns (could include startup funds for things > that would eventually make the LLG money, like selling books and > merchandise), providing them with server space, sending them to > conferences, etc. Another thing I think would help is > partnerships/coordination with other groups! The LCS (Language Creation > Society) is one example. In their recent meeting they talked about their > lending library and I think we should give them a CLL1.1 to put in there > (and a CLL2 as soon as it's ready, of course). We should make sure we have > ongoing contact with groups such as nooLearn who are trying to build things > with Lojban. LLG presumably needs to appoint a point person for such > coordinations, or assign one of the officers to manage communications. > > I really like the idea of having a partnership and a liaison. > - Lojban also has an inertia problem. Many projects plod along slowly > (e.g. CLL, though recent progress has been very encouraging) or get started > but never finished (e.g. the proficiency test, printed dictionary, L4B). > This is quite understandable (and I fault myself here as well of course) > because initial design work is much more fun than necessary grunt work. > Merely exhorting people to work on things doesn't really work. Perhaps > monetary rewards for completion of milestones on important projects, > essentially a bounty system, could help? CLL2 and the proficiency test > would be examples. > > I strongly support this idea (proposed by you and Gleki). The bounty need not apply only to big projects. We could elicit the community to propose texts to be translated. We set aside a certain amount of money each fiscal year (or something) and figure out which of these projects is most useful and/or most reasonable (by some sort of committee); the committee then, following a rubric (for fairness), assigns the bounty for each project approved, so that the total rewards available do not exceed the money set aside (aforementioned). The complete list of projects and their bounties (and the requirements for what constitutes a rewardable effort on that project, and a description of the process by which contributors are to be selected for recognition as deserving of reward) will be promulgated and posted publicly. The list should be reviewed every X time-units; new entries should be added regularly, projects which have been completed should be removed, and bounties should be adjusted. Thus, we would need to form a committee, establish its rules and how its members are chosen, allocate it fiscal resources, and give it the technology with which it may promulgate the notices for projects (and to pay those who deserve reward). I suppose that the committee should also get paid. Aside that contains slightly more detailed thoughts on this (fairly off-topic for now since this discussion is preliminary): I would say that a person who is intending to work on a project must declare their intention to do so. After a certain time frame, the project is temporarily closed to new workers (who are eligible for the bounty). After another time frame, all workers who declared are to submit their progress. A committee then judges the works. If it approves of any of the works or of their integrated whole, it declares so, awards the bounty in part or in whole to whomsoever provided the approved work, and then publishes the completed forms (separately and/or in integrated fashion as desired by the committee and by the workers). Incomplete projects will be reposted with an updated bounty and criteria list and it may be reopened to the public or remain restricted to the previous workers as desired by the committee. Texts should be reviewed by a proficient Lojban speaker for correctness. We want to be able to show these works off, to tell people "This is what good Lojban looks like". Projects such as CLL sections (since we should probably break it down by section), education materials, etc. would need to be more carefully reviewed and approved by other organizations. They might even need to go out for a test drive. I think that the rubric for assigning bounties should assert a minimal allowed bounty (as a fraction of the total funds) based on certain objective criteria (Is the project primarily in Lojban? Is it a text? Is it a teaching aid? Is it an explanation of a feature of Lojban? How many words is it?). Depending on the importance of the project, additional monetary reward may be assigned to it. People can also donate so as to increase the bounty for individual projects, if they desire. > - This has come up ad nauseum before, but most of our official online > presence runs from a server (two servers?) in Robin's basement, AFAIK. I am > *not* suggesting that he does a bad job of managing this. However, if > Robin wants to transition away from this role, it seems very reasonable for > LLG to pay for some (virtual) server infrastructure and hire someone to > administer it. I can help with this if we go that route. > > I agree. > - Jbonunsla attendance is indeed a problem. I was there this year and it > was fun but we did not have a critical mass. There are a couple of ways we > could get more attendance. The problem is that the Lojban communities are > highly geographically decentralized. One possibility is awarding travel > grants, but this could easily blow through the bank account in a year or > two. I think a more sustainable idea is to change jbonunsla to more of an > online conference model. Workshops and discussions can be held over > videoconference and recorded for posterity. > Online meetings are far preferable in my opinion. IRL meetings are just a waste of money. > > - In the last meeting we talked about facilitating communication between > disparate Lojban communities, but nothing really got started. I strongly > believe this is important for the future of the language. LLG may need to > pay some natlang translators to get this off the ground, until enough > people in each community are proficient enough in Lojban. An online > jbonunsla (kibjbonunsla?) should contribute to this by having more > international participation. > I am not sure exactly how, but the idea is a good one. > > - Lastly, on a personal note, to advance Lojban as a language and a > community we need to work together and not antagonize each other. I haven't > always been great at this in the past and I will try to do better. To la > guskant specifically, I echo that your work and participation are highly > valued. However, if you'll allow me a critique, even when we strongly > disagree I don't believe calling each other "eternal enemies" or > "illogical" is productive. Most everyone involved in the incident regarding > la zantufa has apologized to you, repeatedly and publically, and dare I say > even learned from those mistakes something about the power and danger of > labeling certain things as "official Lojban" (see my comment above about > BPFK). I really hope we can put past spats in the past so that we can work > together on future projects without fear of small arguments ballooning into > schisms. > > This got longer than I intended. Sorry. > > - Alex Burka (la durkavore) > > On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:03 PM, Karen Stein > wrote: > >> Note: I'm leaving the list of who wrote so it's easier to sort out even >> though it cluttered the beginning of my post. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > --047d7bf109e6d3529f0528a0cf65 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Alex Burka <durka42@gmail.com>= wrote:
(Kar= en, we only received the first sentence of your post.)

=C2=A0
- Lojban has a publicity problem. Not enough p= eople know about the language, which means the pool of potential learners/s= peakers is too small. One way that LLG can combat this is to facilitate peo= ple doing publicity and outreach. This could be done by simply paying them,= or providing funding for advertising campaigns (could include startup fund= s for things that would eventually make the LLG money, like selling books a= nd merchandise), providing them with server space, sending them to conferen= ces, etc. Another thing I think would help is partnerships/coordination wit= h other groups! The LCS (Language Creation Society) is one example. In thei= r recent meeting they talked about their lending library and I think we sho= uld give them a CLL1.1 to put in there (and a CLL2 as soon as it's read= y, of course). We should make sure we have ongoing contact with groups such= as nooLearn who are trying to build things with Lojban. LLG presumably nee= ds to appoint a point person for such coordinations, or assign one of the o= fficers to manage communications.


I really like the idea of having a partnership and a liai= son.
=C2=A0
=
- Lojban also has an inertia problem. Many projects plod al= ong slowly (e.g. CLL, though recent progress has been very encouraging) or = get started but never finished (e.g. the proficiency test, printed dictiona= ry, L4B). This is quite understandable (and I fault myself here as well of = course) because initial design work is much more fun than necessary grunt w= ork. Merely exhorting people to work on things doesn't really work. Per= haps monetary rewards for completion of milestones on important projects, e= ssentially a bounty system, could help? CLL2 and the proficiency test would= be examples.


I = strongly support this idea (proposed by you and Gleki).=C2=A0 The bounty ne= ed not apply only to big projects. We could elicit the community to propose= texts to be translated.=C2=A0 We set aside a certain amount of money each = fiscal year (or something) and figure out which of these projects is most u= seful and/or most reasonable (by some sort of committee); the committee the= n, following a rubric (for fairness), assigns the bounty for each project a= pproved, so that the total rewards available do not exceed the money set as= ide (aforementioned).=C2=A0 The complete list of projects and their bountie= s (and the requirements for what constitutes a rewardable effort on that pr= oject, and a description of the process by which contributors are to be sel= ected for recognition as deserving of reward) will be promulgated and poste= d publicly. The list should be reviewed every X time-units; new entries sho= uld be added regularly, projects which have been completed should be remove= d, and bounties should be adjusted.

Thus, we would= need to form a committee, establish its rules and how its members are chos= en, allocate it fiscal resources, and give it the technology with which it = may promulgate the notices for projects (and to pay those who deserve rewar= d). I suppose that the committee should also get paid.

=
Aside that contains slightly more detailed thoughts on this (fairly of= f-topic for now since this discussion is preliminary):
I would sa= y that a person who is intending to work on a project must declare their in= tention to do so. After a certain time frame, the project is temporarily cl= osed to new workers (who are eligible for the bounty). After another time f= rame, all workers who declared are to submit their progress.=C2=A0 A commit= tee then judges the works.=C2=A0 If it approves of any of the works or of t= heir integrated whole, it declares so, awards the bounty in part or in whol= e to whomsoever provided the approved work, and then publishes the complete= d forms (separately and/or in integrated fashion as desired by the committe= e and by the workers). Incomplete projects will be reposted with an updated= bounty and criteria list and it may be reopened to the public or remain re= stricted to the previous workers as desired by the committee.

Texts should be reviewed by a proficient Lojban speaker for= correctness. We want to be able to show these works off, to tell people &q= uot;This is what good Lojban looks like".
Projects such as C= LL sections (since we should probably break it down by section), education = materials, etc. would need to be more carefully reviewed and approved by ot= her organizations.=C2=A0 They might even need to go out for a test drive.

I think that the rubric for assigning bounties shou= ld assert a minimal allowed bounty (as a fraction of the total funds) based= on certain objective criteria (Is the project primarily in Lojban? Is it a= text? Is it a teaching aid? Is it an explanation of a feature of Lojban? H= ow many words is it?).=C2=A0 Depending on the importance of the project, ad= ditional monetary reward may be assigned to it. People can also donate so a= s to increase the bounty for individual projects, if they desire.


=C2=A0
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
- This has come up ad nauseum before, but m= ost of our official online presence runs from a server (two servers?) in Ro= bin's basement, AFAIK. I am not suggesting that he does a bad jo= b of managing this. However, if Robin wants to transition away from this ro= le, it seems very reasonable for LLG to pay for some (virtual) server infra= structure and hire someone to administer it. I can help with this if we go = that route.


= I agree.
=C2=A0
- Jbonunsla attendance is indeed a problem. I was there= this year and it was fun but we did not have a critical mass. There are a = couple of ways we could get more attendance. The problem is that the Lojban= communities are highly geographically decentralized. One possibility is aw= arding travel grants, but this could easily blow through the bank account i= n a year or two. I think a more sustainable idea is to change jbonunsla to = more of an online conference model. Workshops and discussions can be held o= ver videoconference and recorded for posterity.

Online meetings are far preferable in my opinion.=C2=A0 IR= L meetings are just a waste of money.
=C2=A0

- In the last meeting = we talked about facilitating communication between disparate Lojban communi= ties, but nothing really got started. I strongly believe this is important = for the future of the language. LLG may need to pay some natlang translator= s to get this off the ground, until enough people in each community are pro= ficient enough in Lojban. An online jbonunsla (kibjbonunsla?) should contri= bute to this by having more international participation.


I am not sure exactly how, but the= idea is a good one.
=C2=A0
<= div dir=3D"ltr">

- Lastly, on a personal note, to advanc= e Lojban as a language and a community we need to work together and not ant= agonize each other. I haven't always been great at this in the past and= I will try to do better. To la guskant specifically, I echo that your work= and participation are highly valued. However, if you'll allow me a cri= tique, even when we strongly disagree I don't believe calling each othe= r "eternal enemies" or "illogical" is productive. Most = everyone involved in the incident regarding la zantufa has apologized to yo= u, repeatedly and publically, and dare I say even learned from those mistak= es something about the power and danger of labeling certain things as "= ;official Lojban" (see my comment above about BPFK). I really hope we = can put past spats in the past so that we can work together on future proje= cts without fear of small arguments ballooning into schisms.

=
This got longer than I intended. Sorry.

- Alex Burka (la durkavore)

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:03 PM, Karen S= tein <comcaresvcs@gmail.com> wrote:
Note: I'm leaving the list of who wrote so it&= #39;s easier to sort out even though it cluttered the beginning of my post.=

_______________________________________________=
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-membe= rs



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-membe= rs


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