Received: from localhost ([::1]:55983 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1ahKQD-0005B8-CK; Sat, 19 Mar 2016 10:12:17 -0700 Received: from mail-vk0-f41.google.com ([209.85.213.41]:34959) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1ahKQ2-0005An-Us for llg-members@lojban.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2016 10:12:11 -0700 Received: by mail-vk0-f41.google.com with SMTP id e6so175401961vkh.2 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2016 10:12:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to; bh=SXNfhKy6/0Wn7sQsIvG9nlE2USQ95m0mE7c2JzBC30I=; b=darwvXPMk1UPRs5bZH8ZwkNSeZLlPEyK194Uzhy4uwIjo7nsM7Z8Ml8ALkhdlmwZiI hq1/l1npuOJ4rAGHWtQGTu06qX2mir4UQoYfsjO2jJjNJesrAwWdBDCDnWRU27tykV8y 6za0aPV6jkmKYWetgrUaMzynTlHrLjNvLg2NqtfWpQuE3iPuiFPqdjsKGrheQivDAGHW 5EaJPs9fgi4oNORxWiDZvOwU9+SE+EX5UhxACWG5z6ixDWaoEsHJ9NBWzB9A+tMnoKbn HiyB3GUJUcJEPzH418gMcfmbOEcjWBwXnDTfKUUIdDwdKs7yL+D1xeMfE6yKXWRTmImI EVIA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to; bh=SXNfhKy6/0Wn7sQsIvG9nlE2USQ95m0mE7c2JzBC30I=; b=XetmFMTnzzt5nkAs//BPlsXttTCa7Zgjd1GJjbP87VZOrq/H24A9XGJ0zj4Y9+iZ2D F41zLnytHAtZxKNL8l3lqBirZsYLfGT5g46/JlKV5Q83jIkqyur3eVhwPLlG8Vey/PFo nmcaMxiqAqIHk6SZT9Rj5rVYF/+8IfCsRmmt10gqwn8wYTFt3L/JPd4jsbb/VlrAtJS4 NSQNB2hrCBfeIxHprXYofGBy8RPRkhUqCSFqpE1Vkl6losjAHojNMrTvJLbWT6aBiPjh vUSmfN7oD/UsUjevqNECK5aO02EjFzKqRTWiUkCLLz89irREQsesxLUjGmOXudBMm7v8 CCxw== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJJODf9NvJS1pIfLvv9YI7LrBBogx+bUf4YPsJSHcMhz5TeCkzwow921L0V9BZbrZzgqcoPSRP5a1FXEEg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.31.16.38 with SMTP id g38mr24089538vki.105.1458407519236; Sat, 19 Mar 2016 10:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.159.38.135 with HTTP; Sat, 19 Mar 2016 10:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.159.38.135 with HTTP; Sat, 19 Mar 2016 10:11:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20160319165805.GA8304@mercury.ccil.org> References: <8BCCD0E2-E6D4-4687-9D89-D177E69E1259@gmail.com> <56DE1D83.8050901@lojban.org> <8EC7FC36-8C8F-43FD-AE6A-C704D1D9C2CE@gmail.com> <12678381.nPyR9sEY1K@caracal> <56E0AE11.8020708@lojban.org> <56E1F54E.3040501@lojban.org> <56E5FFAF.1030405@selpahi.de> <20160319165805.GA8304@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2016 13:11:59 -0400 Message-ID: From: Curtis Franks To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] 2015 Annual Meeting - Old Business X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7070266408811151642==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============7070266408811151642== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11431e761f3952052e69f6bd --001a11431e761f3952052e69f6bd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am most worried about new selma'o (or substantial changes to old ones) and gismu, although I do suppose that an oversight committee for the maintenance of lujvo (keeping them well-formed in normal/officially sanctioned usage) and cmevla (ensuring that they are appropriate and reflect local pronunciations) could be good. The lujvo thing may be too much though and the community may be able to exert sufficient pressure to maintain a fairly acceptable lujvo lexicon (although I think that it would be, by my standards, almost certainly further from perfect than if there were a governing body). Apart from recognizing certain zi'evla in a semi-official manner if desired and making sure that new proposals align with the grammar, I think that zi'evla should be free. But gismu and selma'o should be tightly governed; cmevla in officially recognized/sanctioned works should always be evaluated and re=C3=ABvaluated= . I think that Lojban generally should have a synergy and tension between prescriptivism and descriptivism/free-development. I think that the latter should generally drive the former, but that the language ultimately must be specified. Of course, radicals can go forth and do their own thing, breaking whichever rules they desire in their art; in particular, we have no real enforcement mechanisms (nor, I believe, should we), but I think that there should always be maintenance of an official version of the language which is distinct from other, personal or artistic vel sim. usages. Artistic, non-compliant works can even be officially recognized as being of artistic and cultural value, but there should be a disclaimer against endorsement of non-standard features. On Mar 19, 2016 12:58 PM, "John Cowan" wrote: > Curtis Franks scripsit: > > > Is there any process by which a word may be considered and designated a= s > > official? If not, I think that one should be developed. > > I disagree entirely. I think the time has passed for official words, > official dictionaries, or official anything else. The only things that > need to be stabilized are the grammar and the list of selma'o. When > new cmavo are added, it's trivial to change parsers to handle them: > the same is not the case for new grammar/selma'o. > > Natural languages add words naturally. It's time for Lojban to work > the same way. New brivla will of course be much commoner than new > cmavo, but even the so-called "closed classes" in natural languages > occasionally get pried open and new words added. > > -- > John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org > Lope de Vega: "It wonders me I can speak at all. Some caitiff rogue > did rudely yerk me on the knob, wherefrom my wits yet wander." > An Englishman: "Ay, belike a filchman to the nab'll leave you > crank for a spell." --Harry Turtledove, Ruled Britannia > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > --001a11431e761f3952052e69f6bd Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am most worried about new selma'o (or substantial chan= ges to old ones) and gismu, although I do suppose that an oversight committ= ee for the maintenance of lujvo (keeping them well-formed in normal/officia= lly sanctioned usage) and cmevla (ensuring that they are appropriate and re= flect local pronunciations) could be good. The lujvo thing may be too much = though and the community may be able to exert sufficient pressure to mainta= in a fairly acceptable lujvo lexicon (although I think that it would be, by= my standards, almost certainly further from perfect than if there were a g= overning body). Apart from recognizing certain zi'evla in a semi-offici= al manner if desired and making sure that new proposals align with the gram= mar, I think that zi'evla should be free. But gismu and selma'o sho= uld be tightly governed; cmevla in officially recognized/sanctioned works s= hould always be evaluated and re=C3=ABvaluated.

I think that Lojban generally should have a synergy and tens= ion between prescriptivism and descriptivism/free-development. I think that= the latter should generally drive the former, but that the language ultima= tely must be specified. Of course, radicals can go forth and do their own t= hing, breaking whichever rules they desire in their art; in particular, we = have no real enforcement mechanisms (nor, I believe, should we), but I thin= k that there should always be maintenance of an official version of the lan= guage which is distinct from other, personal or artistic vel sim. usages. A= rtistic, non-compliant works can even be officially recognized as being of = artistic and cultural value, but there should be a disclaimer against endor= sement of non-standard features.

On Mar 19, 2016 12:58 PM, "John Cowan"= <cowan@mercury.ccil.org&g= t; wrote:
Curtis F= ranks scripsit:

> Is there any process by which a word may be considered and designated = as
> official? If not, I think that one should be developed.

I disagree entirely.=C2=A0 I think the time has passed for official words,<= br> official dictionaries, or official anything else.=C2=A0 The only things tha= t
need to be stabilized are the grammar and the list of selma'o.=C2=A0 Wh= en
new cmavo are added, it's trivial to change parsers to handle them:
the same is not the case for new grammar/selma'o.

Natural languages add words naturally.=C2=A0 It's time for Lojban to wo= rk
the same way.=C2=A0 New brivla will of course be much commoner than new
cmavo, but even the so-called "closed classes" in natural languag= es
occasionally get pried open and new words added.

--
John Cowan=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://www.ccil.org/~cowan=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 cowan@ccil.o= rg
Lope de Vega: "It wonders me I can speak at all.=C2=A0 Some caitiff ro= gue
did rudely yerk me on the knob, wherefrom my wits yet wander."
An Englishman: "Ay, belike a filchman to the nab'll leave you
crank for a spell." --Harry Turtledove, Ruled Britannia

_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-membe= rs
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