Received: from localhost ([::1]:45105 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1arxzT-0005ku-SD; Sun, 17 Apr 2016 18:28:39 -0700 Received: from mail-vk0-f52.google.com ([209.85.213.52]:35157) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1arxzO-0005ka-AQ for llg-members@lojban.org; Sun, 17 Apr 2016 18:28:38 -0700 Received: by mail-vk0-f52.google.com with SMTP id t129so204442349vkg.2 for ; Sun, 17 Apr 2016 18:28:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to; bh=DjY5O1TQVNkpk5qpw3pci9FnwNyUrlhSf/WoGlIpvFo=; b=fB2R10pNc6sKeM+pb5Ob1ldiiujiye/mPAlNNBGNM7v5qvudVsE7uqOihh8HZjVrRr JxtqB1ZdkAVLjeX0exiMGpFtgZCNlmk/hdnvdutZswsxFq6dVh2BSe0RJChpbR1oV9iJ IJd9MSeeCCZRDiHkwPjlZUz+jcPkwyCVIFk7eiRB4EnaJPZAwgsW3rhm/IJ8iyAsFaZU skzVF+kmyP/I/2pPbXWHNFCo8MmMOKQtd01yWaAnNPgOIYR1Rl2oJg4XTieOC0vw/AzY zr4mJQbPK3JXt9+OQaERkIVdwkpQVH6tw2kxcA3jVKPUjzf9TQgnQ6ME0iRVwdQB7+Rd Myog== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to; bh=DjY5O1TQVNkpk5qpw3pci9FnwNyUrlhSf/WoGlIpvFo=; b=Lp8UF0bXWorRNjRx+TxEt/HscBWA87MVoOUZALt0OOWv3/TukKIEa5Ph7VsWam/5ss hsDr7Yylx6ZXazOCjVo3h2PfKQ5Xq6lT6ieeghRer+3atyvHO5jzoOURAZ6CkD7dYRCQ BpZfv14OGB1NDQxAtJ1M/oz9LeguVLlqwIwo5AXJ4soU3WLiRHTRHUUe6iYjjykTXx33 WYb0v2JiU1cBf2VSFO813xUjVt1kn4bnW8veMVnqXhn168NmLLUzT02N1ZCANWu2Kmlf kusHK8IryD1+A5v6GHZhtKRRaGGOZdGp7m9G0hzfLu9WHRd9FJoniIVYqpvEMU0/6eRx jztA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FU5jpRlKjppvhCvJ/itj7DgJuY1MoUhnrC6qHaYDrTS1FXLaGvBjCauFdOZKpXb+WRYGkrF5aXg+XUT3w== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.31.108.136 with SMTP id j8mr17226375vki.105.1460942908025; Sun, 17 Apr 2016 18:28:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.176.66.226 with HTTP; Sun, 17 Apr 2016 18:28:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.176.66.226 with HTTP; Sun, 17 Apr 2016 18:28:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <571271C9.7050002@lojban.org> <5713E3F7.2050104@lojban.org> Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 21:28:27 -0400 Message-ID: From: Curtis Franks To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Annual meeting: New Business, anyone? X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8165045523357464658==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============8165045523357464658== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114784c211f1a60530b847e7 --001a114784c211f1a60530b847e7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I am fine with developing enforceable rules for the management, production, advertisement, and presentation of Lojbanic material on certain machines and/or examples of various media (such as officially adopted websites). But unless Gleki has clearly violated rules that are already established, I believe that he should not be punished for his actions in any official and/or restrictive capacity. We cannot hold him to account against rules that do not yet exist. Any developed rules should not apply ex post facto, either. If he conducts future infractions against any rules which are by then established, then he may be punished accordingly, as prescribed by the rule only (or, I suppose, less). In the meantime, we can issue an unofficial and more personal chastisement for specific examples of conduct if we as a body so desire, but really the discussion and developed rules should be sufficient for this purpose as well. We should develop said rules without reference to personal events. We can say "I would not like it if a person did X", but we should avoid mentioning names or making it clear that such an event has in fact happened, unless the proposal is contested on the grounds of being unrealistic (in terms of when its conditions may be satisfied and/or when it may be violated). Even then, I am not sure that names should be mentioned, but I also doubt that doing so will effectively matter, as we would presumably all be able to guess the individual in question at various times and the reference would not really be defamatory; I prefer to avoid euphemism. So, let us develop those rules. On Apr 17, 2016 20:32, "guskant" wrote: 2016-04-17 19:28 GMT+00:00 Bob LeChevalier : > On 4/16/2016 4:43 PM, guskant wrote: >> >> 1. making a response to the open letter >> http://guskant.github.io/lojbo/open_letter/ >> ; >> >> 2. putting the official website under control of LLG and creating the >> website policies; > > > The website is ultimately under Robin Powell's control, since he owns the > machine, and he chooses who he allows various privileges to. I interpret > this as asking us to establish an official website apart of Robin's, which > would be under the control of the Board or its designee > I meant rather the contents of the official website. Robin is the owner of the machine, but the web contents are currently under control of Gleki. >> 3. depriving Gleki of his administratorship on the official website >> (as written in the open letter, not only the mediawiki engine but >> also any tools on Vrici server); > > > I don't know what the mediawiki engine and vrici server are. If either of > these refers to something not on Robin's machine, there is probably nothing > we can do. > The mediawiki engine is a set of programs for maintaining wiki pages on the official website. The web directory for the official website is a symbolic link of a subdirectory of Gleki's personal directory on Vrici server that is run on Robin's machine. The contents of the official website are under control of Gleki, not of Robin. Gleki put in the same directory his tools personalized for the purpose of teaching an unofficial language that he called "modern dialects of Lojban". That is abuse of his administratorship on the official web contents. >> 4. asserting on the official website that the official body does not >> have any account of Twitter, or reporting the abuse of >> official-pretending account to Twitter. > > > I've never used Twitter and have no idea what they consider "abuse", but I > suspect that nothing you've reported would be something they would consider > "abuse". I've seen reports of all sorts of Twitter accounts which pretend > to be someone other than who they really are, so this would probably also be > something Twitter would not stop. This would clearly have to be handled by > someone who knows a lot more than I do. > Some of the texts he published through the official-pretending account on Twitter are descriptions of his personal opinions. That is abuse of the official-pretending account. >> The motion was rejected, > > > The motion has NOT been rejected, or even voted upon. It merely hasn't been > seconded. The participation level in this meeting has been so low, that I > wouldn't consider silence to be "rejection", but rather "disinterest" among > the few paying attention. > > Whether the members take up the question of internet/web site policy or not, > I suspect that the Board will do so during the next year (but I cannot say > what priority this will be, since the new Board hasn't yet taken effect). > Once we have a policy, and determine whether the site will remain on Robin's > machine, it might be easier to address the issues you have raised. > That is good news. The motion is not related to Robin's ownership of the machine that runs server for the official website, but I think LLG should pay for a rental server without bothering Robin. > I personally would like to see the issues addressed in a manner which is > neutral as to the personal or political differences that you apparently have > with gleki (which I for one do not really understand). Both of you are > contributing enormously to the language and the community in ways that you > respectively prefer, and I would like those contributions to continue. > I would also appreciate Gleki's contribution to various activities if it were performed without abusing the official things. I actually don't care much about his and other's attack on my works, especially on my personal parsers: it occurred only from difference of values between them and me. The attackers on my parsers prefer easiness for them in usage to neutrality or harmony with logic. I prefer neutrality, harmony with logic and simplicity of the grammar itself to easiness for people of a certain cultural background. I don't force my preference to others, so their attack was a kind of excessive self-defense for defending their "modern dialects of Lojban". >> and LLG prefers therefore seeing my sarcastic >> artworks on Gleki's dictatorship to normalizing the official website. > > > I haven't seen any such artworks, and my own preference in humor tends to > the sarcastic, so I might not be offended. > Some of my artworks in Japanese or French languages contain sarcasm. I have not yet created sarcastic artworks in Lojban, but the title of my recent movie in Lojban contains sarcasm about the official xorlo interpretation that does not define the meaning of {lo no broda}. Movie: https://vimeo.com/141602354 Explanation about the meaning of {lo no broda}: https://mw.lojban.org/papri/gadri:_an_unofficial_commentary_from_a_logical_point_of_view#Problems_on_inner_quantification Gleki's dictatorship gave me the opportunity of creating Lojbanic sarcastic artworks that will be more easy to understand. > gleki of course has no dictatorship. If anyone does, it is Robin, but I > believe he has delegated power to multiple people, not just gleki. > > You have objected to some decisions he has made, but he is not the only > person with the power to make decisions, and others have the power to > override those decisions, but only if you bring the dispute directly to our > attention > As I explained above, Robin is the owner of machine and the administrator of Vrici server, but he gave the administratorship of official web contents to Gleki: the web contents are identical to a subdirectory of Gleki's personal directory. The current official web contents are under control of Gleki, not of Robin. Robin had the whole power before, but I have not observed that Robin abused his power on the official website for unofficial things. On the other hand, Gleki actually abused the power by modifying the tools on the official website so that they are suitable to his personal lecture course of unofficial language. The tools he put on the official website don't include any information about the responsibility, and users should believe that all the tools are supported by the official body. > "Normalizing the website" might be rather too big a job to undertake in a > member's meeting. Setting up a committee and a few guidelines is probably > the best we could do right now. In the absence of a decision by the members > or the Board, I can as President delegate this to the Secretary/Treasurer, > who has responsibility for "communications" under the Bylaws. > Those are the least things that LLG must do right now for the purpose of normalizing the website. mi'e la guskant _______________________________________________ Llg-members mailing list Llg-members@lojban.org http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members --001a114784c211f1a60530b847e7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am fine with developing enforceable rules for the manageme= nt, production, advertisement, and presentation of Lojbanic material on cer= tain machines and/or examples of various media (such as officially adopted = websites). But unless Gleki has clearly violated rules that are already est= ablished, I believe that he should not be punished for his actions in any o= fficial and/or restrictive capacity. We cannot hold him to account against = rules that do not yet exist. Any developed rules should not apply ex post f= acto, either. If he conducts future infractions against any rules which are= by then established, then he may be punished accordingly, as prescribed by= the rule only (or, I suppose, less). In the meantime, we can issue an unof= ficial and more personal chastisement for specific examples of conduct if w= e as a body so desire, but really the discussion and developed rules should= be sufficient for this purpose as well.

We should develop said rules without reference to personal e= vents. We can say "I would not like it if a person did X", but we= should avoid mentioning names or making it clear that such an event has in= fact happened, unless the proposal is contested on the grounds of being un= realistic (in terms of when its conditions may be satisfied and/or when it = may be violated). Even then, I am not sure that names should be mentioned, = but I also doubt that doing so will effectively matter, as we would presuma= bly all be able to guess the individual in question at various times and th= e reference would not really be defamatory; I prefer to avoid euphemism.

So, let us develop those rules.

On Apr 17, 2016 20:32, "guskant" <<= a href=3D"mailto:gusni.kantu@gmail.com">gusni.kantu@gmail.com> wrote= :
2016-04-17 19:28 GMT+00:00 Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org>:
> On 4/16/2016 4:43 PM, guskant wrote:
>>
>> 1. making a response to the open = letter
>> http://guskant.github.io/lojbo/open_letter/<= br> >> ;
>>
>> 2. putting the official website under control of LLG and creating = the
>> website policies;
>
>
> The website is ultimately under Robin Powell's control, since he o= wns the
> machine, and he chooses who he allows various privileges to.=C2=A0 I i= nterpret
> this as asking us to establish an official website apart of Robin'= s, which
> would be under the control of the Board or its designee
>

I meant rather the contents of the official website. Robin is the
owner of the machine, but the web contents are currently under control
of Gleki.


>> 3. depriving Gleki of his administratorship on the official websit= e
>> (as=C2=A0 written in the open letter, not only the mediawiki engin= e but
>> also any tools on Vrici server);
>
>
> I don't know what the mediawiki engine and vrici server are.=C2=A0= If either of
> these refers to something not on Robin's machine, there is probabl= y nothing
> we can do.
>

The mediawiki engine is a set of programs for maintaining wiki pages<= br> on the official website. The web directory for the official website is
a symbolic link of a subdirectory of Gleki's personal directory on
Vrici server that is run on Robin's machine. The contents of the
official website are under control of Gleki, not of Robin.

Gleki put in the same directory his tools personalized for the purpose
of teaching an unofficial language that he called "modern dialects of<= br> Lojban". That is abuse of his administratorship on the official web contents.


>> 4. asserting on the official website that the official body does n= ot
>> have any account of Twitter, or reporting the abuse of
>> official-pretending account to Twitter.
>
>
> I've never used Twitter and have no idea what they consider "= abuse", but I
> suspect that nothing you've reported would be something they would= consider
> "abuse".=C2=A0 I've seen reports of all sorts of Twitter= accounts which pretend
> to be someone other than who they really are, so this would probably a= lso be
> something Twitter would not stop.=C2=A0 This would clearly have to be = handled by
> someone who knows a lot more than I do.
>

Some of the texts he published through the official-pretending accoun= t
on Twitter are descriptions of his personal opinions. That is abuse of
the official-pretending account.


>> The motion was rejected,
>
>
> The motion has NOT been rejected, or even voted upon.=C2=A0 It merely = hasn't been
> seconded.=C2=A0 The participation level in this meeting has been so lo= w, that I
> wouldn't consider silence to be "rejection", but rather = "disinterest" among
> the few paying attention.
>
> Whether the members take up the question of internet/web site policy o= r not,
> I suspect that the Board will do so during the next year (but I cannot= say
> what priority this will be, since the new Board hasn't yet taken e= ffect).
> Once we have a policy, and determine whether the site will remain on R= obin's
> machine, it might be easier to address the issues you have raised.
>

That is good news. The motion is not related to Robin's ownership= of
the machine that runs server for the official website, but I think LLG
should pay for a rental server without bothering Robin.


> I personally would like to see the issues addressed in a manner which = is
> neutral as to the personal or political differences that you apparentl= y have
> with gleki (which I for one do not really understand).=C2=A0 Both of y= ou are
> contributing enormously to the language and the community in ways that= you
> respectively prefer, and I would like those contributions to continue.=
>

I would also appreciate Gleki's contribution to various activitie= s if
it were performed without abusing the official things. I actually
don't care much about his and other's attack on my works, especiall= y
on my personal parsers: it occurred only from difference of values
between them and me. The attackers on my parsers prefer easiness for
them in usage to neutrality or harmony with logic. I prefer
neutrality, harmony with logic and simplicity of the grammar itself to
easiness for people of a certain cultural background. I don't force my<= br> preference to others, so their attack was a kind of excessive
self-defense for defending their "modern dialects of Lojban".


>> and LLG prefers therefore seeing my sarcastic
>> artworks on Gleki's dictatorship to normalizing the official w= ebsite.
>
>
> I haven't seen any such artworks, and my own preference in humor t= ends to
> the sarcastic, so I might not be offended.
>

Some of my artworks in Japanese or French languages contain sarcasm. = I
have not yet created sarcastic artworks in Lojban, but the title of my
recent movie in Lojban contains sarcasm about the official xorlo
interpretation that does not define the meaning of {lo no broda}.

Movie:
https://vimeo.com/141602354

Explanation about the meaning of {lo no broda}:
https://mw.lojban.org/papri/gadri:_an_unofficial_comme= ntary_from_a_logical_point_of_view#Problems_on_inner_quantification


Gleki's dictatorship gave me the opportunity of creating Lojbanic
sarcastic artworks that will be more easy to understand.



> gleki of course has no dictatorship.=C2=A0 If anyone does, it is Robin= , but I
> believe he has delegated power to multiple people, not just gleki.
>
> You have objected to some decisions he has made, but he is not the onl= y
> person with the power to make decisions, and others have the power to<= br> > override those decisions, but only if you bring the dispute directly t= o our
> attention
>

As I explained above, Robin is the owner of machine and the
administrator of Vrici server, but he gave the administratorship of
official web contents to Gleki: the web contents are identical to a
subdirectory of Gleki's personal directory. The current official web contents are under control of Gleki, not of Robin. Robin had the whole
power before, but I have not observed that Robin abused his power on
the official website for unofficial things. On the other hand, Gleki
actually abused the power by modifying the tools on the official
website so that they are suitable to his personal lecture course of
unofficial language. The tools he put on the official website don't
include any information about the responsibility, and users should
believe that all the tools are supported by the official body.


> "Normalizing the website" might be rather too big a job to u= ndertake in a
> member's meeting.=C2=A0 Setting up a committee and a few guideline= s is probably
> the best we could do right now.=C2=A0 In the absence of a decision by = the members
> or the Board, I can as President delegate this to the Secretary/Treasu= rer,
> who has responsibility for "communications" under the Bylaws= .
>

Those are the least things that LLG must do right now for the purpose=
of normalizing the website.

mi'e la guskant

_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-membe= rs
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