Received: from localhost ([::1]:40760 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1ccvS7-0004pv-Pl; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 06:48:35 -0800 Received: from mail-yw0-f171.google.com ([209.85.161.171]:35630) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1ccvS0-0004nX-S9 for llg-members@lojban.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 06:48:33 -0800 Received: by mail-yw0-f171.google.com with SMTP id l19so40326397ywc.2 for ; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 06:48:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=MbnHd/WvaDxG7ZUH4vpEhGDjW+M3AN7815kQYuRAKLI=; b=p1F4NTlKxpoWkCh2CbdiTea2rg6x5XCv53wwQYdAXmw/E+gXGzA0llp0CBFrsTxXCk Fq+W4PMxv5gZ5H8ChzV1mXXrMD0O0c9tnkXIZtkPRCtZWAq7XPviKghTntBdyt8iiyFS FbdnJwE9P0sDSsAXMOpyO4VuIX0GUq2TwczB7A6lC2Wjgsb3wOj4ExgmS0so81KieTrs ifYWQLYeDjMhsqFo8a2vhqI/k+MbZSMF4c+PUE32yigvHtb1kQ7JGxe7QGxFXIEw8Aqz 8GfOn1k2dIch0Ln89XXZbGwljhjKlwudqKhnhOZe30ymeG6cfAqQoD1EF/FRX0iSzaC6 xGsw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=MbnHd/WvaDxG7ZUH4vpEhGDjW+M3AN7815kQYuRAKLI=; b=NCc7apH4WP7sKum1leuRJsTNHtenrm+QJQ3Zd7jE7mQjjErmShwCBCX5mISZJIg1d9 4DGMZoxJtsiiLJ8vrEmwFVUQLJrT9rVdyrskq71DU8dN0hW+Ky3TfzpWaypuQKKe1XIe 8DX8NL04JxD9wu8+7b870jeFf04sWPcKbGuM10dMSbgi2y2JAVIdvomD0DLMtx6Fo7Fm /nJf38SPuD2daJpILsdVoIup1hEV/5nt/eZW9Qf8wYybsrjw8OaVnF3cCaXBIgAqfCId em7TgXKe52MnqdGII+wrzrvE7AliqKm0SiVpg0xS3TSvT75B/zzBMA8NAtllPXbl04Wt 5d8g== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39k528xO1bWTrXIWj8H5AJDA1FJY2rZB+z2cv+Sg299hRYS4xZEVTf9gvX0L1D9mYX3gNG/nslzpCdpg7g== X-Received: by 10.129.56.215 with SMTP id f206mr13347755ywa.23.1486910901913; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 06:48:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.129.39.203 with HTTP; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 06:47:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <043FA78B-0C3C-4A53-A408-51C436A808C0@gmail.com> References: <043FA78B-0C3C-4A53-A408-51C436A808C0@gmail.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 17:47:41 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] 2016 Annual Meeting of the Logical Language Group, Inc. - call to order and roll call X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4211642704828408363==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============4211642704828408363== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114d88bc1f1f9f0548566cc3 --001a114d88bc1f1f9f0548566cc3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2017-02-12 16:26 GMT+03:00 Karen Stein : > While I can see they could speed up the meetings proper, I still have the > same problems with holding our discussions in this way. > > The first, and to me most significant, is that not everyone (and I believe > more than mukti believes) are not available for regular IRC conversations. > Speaking as one person for whom this is true I do not see making comments > during the meeting in response to the prior discussion will receive any > where near the consideration of that given to those during the IRC > conversation. Once people develop an opinion on a topic it is significantly > more difficult to change their views than if the new insights are presented > during the initial conversation. This leaves input of anyone who has > familial or other restrictions on IRC use (including any caused by > disabilities, for instance) at a distinct disadvantage and could leave > people feeling unimportant when really everyone has valuable ideas. Lojban > is not only important to younger people who are more likely to be without > family and other obligations, or whom are the most technologically savvy. > Such people should not feel or be left behind. > > Second, the issue of timing is also important particularly in light of the > above. If people are having difficulty joining in conversations due to > issues other than time zone, rotating the start times may boot help. > Further, such rotation just makes many not able to join in on a particular > topic, then a somewhat different selection of people not able to join in > the next time. It means even more fragmented participation. > > Email discussion is more lengthy, but much more inclusive. That is why i > am not comfortable with this proposed change. > One again I have to repeat my proposal if Riley's conflicts with mine: conduct meetings in IRC PARTIALLY since we have to wait for other members to appear. The logs of IRC meetings would be posted to this mailing list so that others can add their replies. This way nothing would really change and meetings would become more fruitful. > karis > > On February 5, 2017 7:13:40 AM EST, Bob LeChevalier > wrote: > >> On 1/23/2017 3:06 PM, Bob LeChevalier wrote: >> >>> Next on the agenda are the minutes from last meeting. Our Secretary >>> (mukti) is traveling out of this country for the next week or so, so I >>> will defer that item until he returns. >>> >>> Next we have reports of Officers and committees. Again, we will have to >>> wait for mukti to post the Treasurers report after his return. >>> >> >> I had hoped mukti would be back by now, and would have posted the above, >> but it seems not to be the case. In order to move the meetinbg along, I >> will suggest that someone move that we defer these items until the 2017 >> meeting. >> >> I call upon the byfy chairman to report. Pierre's committee (of one?) >>> regarding the development of proficiency tests is the only other >>> committee, I think. So he can also report. >>> >> >> Thanks to the two of you for the reports. Reappointment of the byfy >> chair will be under old business. >> >> One of mukti's suggestions for expediting future meetings, so that they >> don't last for months, is that whereever possible, motions are presented >> in advance of the (next) meeting and discussed on various forums >> (including the members list, but also IRC and whatever else people want >> to try), before they are formally raised at the meeting. I suspect that >> some of the things suggested by the byfy chair in his report would best >> be discussed in the context of such motions as would support their >> implementation. selpa'i, could you prepare such motions, and post them >> when appropriate. (in the current suggestion, I suspect that we can >> have such motions posted as new business, and at the same time tabled >> until the next meeting. Or just post them for discussion now while we >> are still on reports. >> >> I am trying to transition myself out of active leadership/management of >>> the organization. As such, I asked Karen Stein, the VP, and Curtis >>> Franks, also on the Board, to seek via the mailing lists and other forms >>> of communication, inputs from the community as to what LLG should be >>> doing now and in the future to support and promote Lojban, and to make >>> recommendations for action. I would like them to report on what they >>> found out, and what they think should be done (either by the membership, >>> by the Board, or by volunteers). >>> >> >> I haven't seen a report from Karen or Curtis. We really need to figure >> out what LLG will be doing as an organization in a post-lojbab >> environment, and the inputs from the community are essential. Please >> report. >> >> I've asked mukti in his role as managing communications to work with >>> gleki and report on various issues that have been raised regarding the >>> management of the Lojban web site. >>> >> >> Again this will have to wait for mukti to have time to make such a report. >> >> Any other members, Board or otherwise, are welcome to report on any >>> other projects/activities that they feel the membership should be aware >>> of, and any actions that they would like LLG to take as an organization >>> in support of those activities/projects. At this point, I am just >>> looking for reports and recommendations, not motions. >>> >> >> My thanks to guskant and to gleki for their reports. It is not clear >> that either of these points to a motion to be considered by the >> membership. If I am incorrect, please proceed as mentioned above for >> byfy reports. >> >> After we get done with all reports, we will call for new members, and >>> elect a new Board of Directors. >>> >> >> It is not clear that all reports that will be made are completed, but in >> the interests of moving the meeting along, I call for people wishing to >> become members to speak up now, (along with any proposals by others for >> people not currently present to become members - we will need to get >> them to state that they wish to be members, and get them added to this >> mailing list). >> >> I will allow at least a full week for all of the above reports to be >>> posted. Feel free to discuss any reports, ask questions, etc. >>> >> >> I will allow another week for any additional reports, as well as motions >> regarding deferring of minutes and reports (which motions can be >> seconded without waiting for me). Then we will act on any motions as >> appropriate and approve those new members. Then Board elections, short >> consideration of motions, and we adjourn. >> >> Again, the following: >> >>> If for whatever reason I have not posted again for more than 2 weeks >>> from today, I ask the VP to assume the chair and attempt to move the >>> meeting onward, in line with the above and the Bylaw-directed agenda. >>> >> >> lojbab >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > --001a114d88bc1f1f9f0548566cc3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2017-02-12 16:26 GMT+03:00 Karen Stein <comcaresvcs@gmail.com&= gt;:
While= I can see they could speed up the meetings proper, I still have the same p= roblems with holding our discussions in this way.

The first, and to me most significant, is that not everyone (and I believe = more than mukti believes) are not available for regular IRC conversations. = Speaking as one person for whom this is true I do not see making comments d= uring the meeting in response to the prior discussion will receive any wher= e near the consideration of that given to those during the IRC conversation= . Once people develop an opinion on a topic it is significantly more diffic= ult to change their views than if the new insights are presented during the= initial conversation. This leaves input of anyone who has familial or othe= r restrictions on IRC use (including any caused by disabilities, for instan= ce) at a distinct disadvantage and could leave people feeling unimportant w= hen really everyone has valuable ideas. Lojban is not only important to you= nger people who are more likely to be without family and other obligations,= or whom are the most technologically savvy. Such people should not feel or= be left behind.

Second, the issue of timing is also important particularly in light of the = above. If people are having difficulty joining in conversations due to issu= es other than time zone, rotating the start times may boot help. Further, s= uch rotation just makes many not able to join in on a particular topic, the= n a somewhat different selection of people not able to join in the next tim= e. It means even more fragmented participation.

Email discussion is more lengthy, but much more inclusive. That is why i am= not comfortable with this proposed change.

=

One again I have to repeat my proposal if Riley&#= 39;s conflicts with mine:

conduct meetings in IRC = PARTIALLY=C2=A0since we have to wait for other members to appear.
The logs of IRC meetings would be posted to this mailing list so that othe= rs can add their replies.

This way nothing would= =C2=A0really change and meetings would become more fruitful.

=




karis

On Feb= ruary 5, 2017 7:13:40 AM EST, Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> 
On 1/23/2017 3:06 PM, Bob LeChevalier wrote:
 Next on the agenda are the minutes from last mee=
ting.  Our Secretary
 (mukti) is traveling out of this country for the n=
ext week or so, so I
 will defer that item until he returns.

 Nex=
t we have reports of Officers and committees.  Again, we will have to
 w=
ait for mukti to post the Treasurers report after his return.

I had hoped mukti would be back by now, and would have posted the ab=
ove, 
but it seems not to be the case.  In order to move the meetinbg al=
ong, I 
will suggest that someone move that we defer these items until t=
he 2017 
meeting.

 I call upon the byfy chairman to report. Pierre's committee (of one=
?)
 regarding the development of proficiency tests is the only other
=
 committee, I think.  So he can also report.

Thanks to =
the two of you for the reports.  Reappointment of the byfy 
chair will b=
e under old business.

One of mukti's suggestions for expediting =
future meetings, so that they 
don't last for months, is that wheree=
ver possible, motions are presented 
in advance of the (next) meeting an=
d discussed on various forums 
(including the members list, but also IRC=
 and whatever else people want 
to try), before they are formally raised=
 at the meeting.  I suspect that 
some of the things suggested by the by=
fy chair in his report would best 
be discussed in the context of such m=
otions as would support their 
implementation.  selpa'i, could you p=
repare such motions, and post them 
when appropriate.  (in the current s=
uggestion, I suspect that we can 
have such motions posted as new busine=
ss, and at the same time tabled 
until the next meeting.  Or just post t=
hem for discussion now while we 
are still on reports.

 I am trying to transition myself o=
ut of active leadership/management of
 the organization.  As such, I ask=
ed Karen Stein, the VP, and Curtis
 Franks, also on the Board, to seek v=
ia the mailing lists and other forms
 of communication, inputs from the =
community as to what LLG should be
 doing now and in the future to suppo=
rt and promote Lojban, and to make
 recommendations for action.  I would=
 like them to report on what they
 found out, and what they think should=
 be done (either by the membership,
 by the Board, or by volunteers).

I haven't seen a report from Karen or Curtis.  We rea=
lly need to figure 
out what LLG will be doing as an organization in a p=
ost-lojbab 
environment, and the inputs from the community are essential=
.  Please 
report.

 I've asked mukti in his role as managing communications to work wi=
th
 gleki and report on various issues that have been raised regarding t=
he
 management of the Lojban web site.

Again this wi=
ll have to wait for mukti to have time to make such a report.

 Any other members, Board or ot=
herwise, are welcome to report on any
 other projects/activities that th=
ey feel the membership should be aware
 of, and any actions that they wo=
uld like LLG to take as an organization
 in support of those activities/=
projects.  At this point, I am just
 looking for reports and recommendat=
ions, not motions.

My thanks to guskant and to gleki fo= r their reports. It is not clear
that either of these points to a moti= on to be considered by the
membership. If I am incorrect, please proce= ed as mentioned above for
byfy reports.

After we get done with all reports, we will call= for new members, and
elect a new Board of Directors.
<= br>It is not clear that all reports that will be made are completed, but in=
the interests of moving the meeting along, I call for people wishing t= o
become members to speak up now, (along with any proposals by others f= or
people not currently present to become members - we will need to get=
them to state that they wish to be members, and get them added to this=
mailing list).

If for whatever reas= on I have not posted again for more than 2 weeks
from today, I ask the = VP to assume the chair and attempt to move the
meeting onward, in line = with the above and the Bylaw-directed agenda.

lojbab


Llg-members mailing lis= t
Llg-member= s@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg= -members

_________________= ______________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


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