Received: from localhost ([::1]:43296 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1cfJsd-0004jb-H6; Sat, 18 Feb 2017 21:17:51 -0800 Received: from mail-qk0-f171.google.com ([209.85.220.171]:34560) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1cfJsW-0004jU-Gf for llg-members@lojban.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2017 21:17:49 -0800 Received: by mail-qk0-f171.google.com with SMTP id s186so73770128qkb.1 for ; Sat, 18 Feb 2017 21:17:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:disposition-notification-to:return-receipt-to:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:to:from :message-id; bh=5DDQa6BeqRF/5djI89ZRi2wqp9hGyLITbXMTCM+4Jb0=; b=Jr5aYp/Z9BeS5gSJyL5NQbJA/Opk6V714H1DQni07CHJRnE0VguNLSRIw34li6HWfL 2OJToC351cKxyy+1kXKAII5a/yDulzXzqwvcF+9m6Dxo4V1iaddk9ez9upYKI99h3mTW 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s62mr14558231qkc.90.1487481457835; Sat, 18 Feb 2017 21:17:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.239.26.250] ([73.99.90.230]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g32sm9720676qtd.28.2017.02.18.21.17.36 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 18 Feb 2017 21:17:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 00:17:27 -0500 In-Reply-To: References: <043FA78B-0C3C-4A53-A408-51C436A808C0@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 To: llg-members@lojban.org From: Karen Stein Message-ID: <921C62E1-F312-4C18-9D6D-5F8955981DDB@gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.5 X-Spam_score_int: -14 X-Spam_bar: - Subject: Re: [Llg-members] 2016 Annual Meeting of the Logical Language Group, Inc. - call to order and roll call X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2557177986403677523==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============2557177986403677523== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----J8B2RY3FAVZ9WCZ6NIAC3WY9CVHF3H" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------J8B2RY3FAVZ9WCZ6NIAC3WY9CVHF3H Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gleki, I don't see how having the discussion posted means the thoughts of someone= not part of it will receive full consideration=2E I hadn't expected votes = to happen on IRC, but I believe all interested people should be able to con= tribute to the discussion equally=2E =2Ekaris=2E On February 12, 2017 9:47:41 AM EST, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: >2017-02-12 16:26 GMT+03:00 Karen Stein : > >> While I can see they could speed up the meetings proper, I still have >the >> same problems with holding our discussions in this way=2E >> >> The first, and to me most significant, is that not everyone (and I >believe >> more than mukti believes) are not available for regular IRC >conversations=2E >> Speaking as one person for whom this is true I do not see making >comments >> during the meeting in response to the prior discussion will receive >any >> where near the consideration of that given to those during the IRC >> conversation=2E Once people develop an opinion on a topic it is >significantly >> more difficult to change their views than if the new insights are >presented >> during the initial conversation=2E This leaves input of anyone who has >> familial or other restrictions on IRC use (including any caused by >> disabilities, for instance) at a distinct disadvantage and could >leave >> people feeling unimportant when really everyone has valuable ideas=2E >Lojban >> is not only important to younger people who are more likely to be >without >> family and other obligations, or whom are the most technologically >savvy=2E >> Such people should not feel or be left behind=2E >> >> Second, the issue of timing is also important particularly in light >of the >> above=2E If people are having difficulty joining in conversations due >to >> issues other than time zone, rotating the start times may boot help=2E >> Further, such rotation just makes many not able to join in on a >particular >> topic, then a somewhat different selection of people not able to join >in >> the next time=2E It means even more fragmented participation=2E >> >> Email discussion is more lengthy, but much more inclusive=2E That is >why i >> am not comfortable with this proposed change=2E >> > > >One again I have to repeat my proposal if Riley's conflicts with mine: > >conduct meetings in IRC PARTIALLY since we have to wait for other >members >to appear=2E >The logs of IRC meetings would be posted to this mailing list so that >others can add their replies=2E > >This way nothing would really change and meetings would become more >fruitful=2E > > > > > >> karis >> >> On February 5, 2017 7:13:40 AM EST, Bob LeChevalier > >> wrote: >> >>> On 1/23/2017 3:06 PM, Bob LeChevalier wrote: >>> >>>> Next on the agenda are the minutes from last meeting=2E Our >Secretary >>>> (mukti) is traveling out of this country for the next week or so, >so I >>>> will defer that item until he returns=2E >>>> >>>> Next we have reports of Officers and committees=2E Again, we will >have to >>>> wait for mukti to post the Treasurers report after his return=2E >>>> >>> >>> I had hoped mukti would be back by now, and would have posted the >above, >>> but it seems not to be the case=2E In order to move the meetinbg >along, I >>> will suggest that someone move that we defer these items until the >2017 >>> meeting=2E >>> >>> I call upon the byfy chairman to report=2E Pierre's committee (of >one?) >>>> regarding the development of proficiency tests is the only other >>>> committee, I think=2E So he can also report=2E >>>> >>> >>> Thanks to the two of you for the reports=2E Reappointment of the byfy >>> chair will be under old business=2E >>> >>> One of mukti's suggestions for expediting future meetings, so that >they >>> don't last for months, is that whereever possible, motions are >presented >>> in advance of the (next) meeting and discussed on various forums >>> (including the members list, but also IRC and whatever else people >want >>> to try), before they are formally raised at the meeting=2E I suspect >that >>> some of the things suggested by the byfy chair in his report would >best >>> be discussed in the context of such motions as would support their >>> implementation=2E selpa'i, could you prepare such motions, and post >them >>> when appropriate=2E (in the current suggestion, I suspect that we can >>> have such motions posted as new business, and at the same time >tabled >>> until the next meeting=2E Or just post them for discussion now while >we >>> are still on reports=2E >>> >>> I am trying to transition myself out of active >leadership/management of >>>> the organization=2E As such, I asked Karen Stein, the VP, and >Curtis >>>> Franks, also on the Board, to seek via the mailing lists and other >forms >>>> of communication, inputs from the community as to what LLG should >be >>>> doing now and in the future to support and promote Lojban, and to >make >>>> recommendations for action=2E I would like them to report on what >they >>>> found out, and what they think should be done (either by the >membership, >>>> by the Board, or by volunteers)=2E >>>> >>> >>> I haven't seen a report from Karen or Curtis=2E We really need to >figure >>> out what LLG will be doing as an organization in a post-lojbab >>> environment, and the inputs from the community are essential=2E=20 >Please >>> report=2E >>> >>> I've asked mukti in his role as managing communications to work >with >>>> gleki and report on various issues that have been raised regarding >the >>>> management of the Lojban web site=2E >>>> >>> >>> Again this will have to wait for mukti to have time to make such a >report=2E >>> >>> Any other members, Board or otherwise, are welcome to report on any >>>> other projects/activities that they feel the membership should be >aware >>>> of, and any actions that they would like LLG to take as an >organization >>>> in support of those activities/projects=2E At this point, I am just >>>> looking for reports and recommendations, not motions=2E >>>> >>> >>> My thanks to guskant and to gleki for their reports=2E It is not >clear >>> that either of these points to a motion to be considered by the >>> membership=2E If I am incorrect, please proceed as mentioned above >for >>> byfy reports=2E >>> >>> After we get done with all reports, we will call for new members, >and >>>> elect a new Board of Directors=2E >>>> >>> >>> It is not clear that all reports that will be made are completed, >but in >>> the interests of moving the meeting along, I call for people wishing >to >>> become members to speak up now, (along with any proposals by others >for >>> people not currently present to become members - we will need to get >>> them to state that they wish to be members, and get them added to >this >>> mailing list)=2E >>> >>> I will allow at least a full week for all of the above reports to >be >>>> posted=2E Feel free to discuss any reports, ask questions, etc=2E >>>> >>> >>> I will allow another week for any additional reports, as well as >motions >>> regarding deferring of minutes and reports (which motions can be >>> seconded without waiting for me)=2E Then we will act on any motions >as >>> appropriate and approve those new members=2E Then Board elections, >short >>> consideration of motions, and we adjourn=2E >>> >>> Again, the following: >>> >>>> If for whatever reason I have not posted again for more than 2 >weeks >>>> from today, I ask the VP to assume the chair and attempt to move >the >>>> meeting onward, in line with the above and the Bylaw-directed >agenda=2E >>>> >>> >>> lojbab >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Llg-members mailing list >>> Llg-members@lojban=2Eorg >>> http://mail=2Elojban=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban=2Eorg >> http://mail=2Elojban=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >> >> ------J8B2RY3FAVZ9WCZ6NIAC3WY9CVHF3H Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gleki,

I don't see how having the discussion posted means the thoughts of som= eone not part of it will receive full consideration=2E I hadn't expecte= d votes to happen on IRC, but I believe all interested people should be abl= e to contribute to the discussion equally=2E

=2Ekaris=2E

On February 12, 2017 9:47:41= AM EST, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki= =2Eis=2Emy=2Ename@gmail=2Ecom> wrote:


2017-02-12 16:26 GMT+03:00 Karen Stein <comcaresvcs@gmail= =2Ecom>:
While I can see they could speed up the meetings proper, I still = have the same problems with holding our discussions in this way=2E

The first, and to me most significant, is that not everyone (and I believe= more than mukti believes) are not available for regular IRC conversations= =2E Speaking as one person for whom this is true I do not see making commen= ts during the meeting in response to the prior discussion will receive any = where near the consideration of that given to those during the IRC conversa= tion=2E Once people develop an opinion on a topic it is significantly more = difficult to change their views than if the new insights are presented duri= ng the initial conversation=2E This leaves input of anyone who has familial= or other restrictions on IRC use (including any caused by disabilities, fo= r instance) at a distinct disadvantage and could leave people feeling unimp= ortant when really everyone has valuable ideas=2E Lojban is not only import= ant to younger people who are more likely to be without family and other ob= ligations, or whom are the most technologically savvy=2E Such people should= not feel or be left behind=2E

Second, the issue of timing is also important particularly in light of the= above=2E If people are having difficulty joining in conversations due to i= ssues other than time zone, rotating the start times may boot help=2E Furth= er, such rotation just makes many not able to join in on a particular topic= , then a somewhat different selection of people not able to join in the nex= t time=2E It means even more fragmented participation=2E

Email discussion is more lengthy, but much more inclusive=2E That is why i= am not comfortable with this proposed change=2E


One again I have to repeat my proposal= if Riley's conflicts with mine:

conduct meeting= s in IRC PARTIALLY since we have to wait for other members to appear= =2E
The logs of IRC meetings would be posted to this mailing list= so that others can add their replies=2E

This wa= y nothing would really change and meetings would become more fruitful= =2E





karis

O= n February 5, 2017 7:13:40 AM EST, Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban=2Eorg> wrote:
On 1/23/2017 3:06 PM, Bob LeChevalier wrote:
 Next on the agenda are the minutes from las=
t meeting=2E  Our Secretary
 (mukti) is traveling out of this country =
for the next week or so, so I
 will defer that item until he returns=
=2E

 Next we have reports of Officers and committees=2E  Again, =
we will have to
 wait for mukti to post the Treasurers report after hi=
s return=2E

I had hoped mukti would be back by now,=
 and would have posted the above, 
but it seems not to be the case=2E =
 In order to move the meetinbg along, I 
will suggest that someone mov=
e that we defer these items until the 2017 
meeting=2E

 I call upon the byfy chair=
man to report=2E Pierre's committee (of one?)
 regarding the developme=
nt of proficiency tests is the only other
 committee, I think=2E  So h=
e can also report=2E

Thanks to the two of you for t= he reports=2E Reappointment of the byfy
chair will be under old busi= ness=2E

One of mukti's suggestions for expediting future meeting= s, so that they
don't last for months, is that whereever possible, mo= tions are presented
in advance of the (next) meeting and discussed on= various forums
(including the members list, but also IRC and whateve= r else people want
to try), before they are formally raised at the me= eting=2E I suspect that
some of the things suggested by the byfy cha= ir in his report would best
be discussed in the context of such motio= ns as would support their
implementation=2E selpa'i, could you prepa= re such motions, and post them
when appropriate=2E (in the current s= uggestion, I suspect that we can
have such motions posted as new busi= ness, and at the same time tabled
until the next meeting=2E Or just = post them for discussion now while we
are still on reports=2E
I am trying to tra= nsition myself out of active leadership/management of
the organizatio= n=2E As such, I asked Karen Stein, the VP, and Curtis
Franks, also o= n the Board, to seek via the mailing lists and other forms
of communi= cation, inputs from the community as to what LLG should be
doing now = and in the future to support and promote Lojban, and to make
recommen= dations for action=2E I would like them to report on what they
found= out, and what they think should be done (either by the membership,
b= y the Board, or by volunteers)=2E

I haven't seen a = report from Karen or Curtis=2E We really need to figure
out what LLG= will be doing as an organization in a post-lojbab
environment, and t= he inputs from the community are essential=2E Please
report=2E
=
I've asked mukti= in his role as managing communications to work with
gleki and report= on various issues that have been raised regarding the
management of = the Lojban web site=2E

Again this will have to wait= for mukti to have time to make such a report=2E

Any other members, Board or otherwise= , are welcome to report on any
other projects/activities that they fe= el the membership should be aware
of, and any actions that they would= like LLG to take as an organization
in support of those activities/p= rojects=2E At this point, I am just
looking for reports and recommen= dations, not motions=2E

My thanks to guskant and to= gleki for their reports=2E It is not clear
that either of these poi= nts to a motion to be considered by the
membership=2E If I am incorr= ect, please proceed as mentioned above for
byfy reports=2E

After we get done wit= h all reports, we will call for new members, and
elect a new Board of= Directors=2E

It is not clear that all reports that= will be made are completed, but in
the interests of moving the meeti= ng along, I call for people wishing to
become members to speak up now= , (along with any proposals by others for
people not currently presen= t to become members - we will need to get
them to state that they wis= h to be members, and get them added to this
mailing list)=2E
I will allow at lea= st a full week for all of the above reports to be
posted=2E Feel fre= e to discuss any reports, ask questions, etc=2E

I w= ill allow another week for any additional reports, as well as motions
regarding deferring of minutes and reports (which motions can be
sec= onded without waiting for me)=2E Then we will act on any motions as
= appropriate and approve those new members=2E Then Board elections, short <= br />consideration of motions, and we adjourn=2E

Again, the foll= owing:
If for wha= tever reason I have not posted again for more than 2 weeks
from today= , I ask the VP to assume the chair and attempt to move the
meeting on= ward, in line with the above and the Bylaw-directed agenda=2E

lojbab



Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban=2Eorg
http= ://mail=2Elojban=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/llg-members
=

_______________________________= ________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban=2Eorg http://mail=2Elojban=2Eorg/mailman/li= stinfo/llg-members


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