Received: from localhost ([::1]:43440 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1cfK3C-0005AG-Gz; Sat, 18 Feb 2017 21:28:46 -0800 Received: from mail-yw0-f181.google.com ([209.85.161.181]:32939) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1cfK36-00059M-Nc for llg-members@lojban.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2017 21:28:44 -0800 Received: by mail-yw0-f181.google.com with SMTP id q127so475364ywg.0 for ; Sat, 18 Feb 2017 21:28:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=2W75D0S08grn9vOL+GlJ511Rtyy3aqd/4e4QotKiS8I=; b=mcfDHG8K+DpgdTF+lUoxoK0RuJABCEFy3BTfRYulmq027cxzztnDXk34n2KX9so3RJ 2UV7SGUh3ry70gqQFNKamo9u6dsE1kLMN2FTYqrWV2mwQTT6lfSMKMBIiu7NwFCQLpz0 hUGaUUwVhMbMkvE0uJoRZt8lUeL8HE3J/R7xvflfBipTKeBPDlx5YEfQciyk/gbRXT/i AGms639SudPxctwf1vSYDspaLM6XZa9NQovASjsCv0xeKxSgFilSS49wXlKnSx2/1kKd JihC+8+2UvmRgpfRNoftYzS/9RVaAO/Sy8THs9HmRUShxVdtx2IDpyEG4B1qfiQkBGyD HA6Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=2W75D0S08grn9vOL+GlJ511Rtyy3aqd/4e4QotKiS8I=; b=ZztEoHI7YkPAgh+vbQkGAPQtJ2mNIKVpA3s+Uw9B7LwaidFesil68r7X2isYXI3Fya 9Wl9fIF0cgp0bhrbyFYBivhGYHJYia1p5PnKp+w3IFRvEtiwYbw9STYAmHpgPfgZ+hYK pMe+zo4uSkvp2RzSrZZLFPBmMJjaHKghunPEODvLYXmYjqfBo4EDyD97sZMGzU61XJt2 ae3SsRErnN2L+3+h+5iVXiG7WILX6b/tePLSByDGGb/JI6lSqnEKw4z+4HcGLpvDXL+V xHeP32bbU2/tTWcE29Nx+l68tkiUo+jDIISB2INHVLAeuTsQixeuK73kYRdNzdLu5ShD 8qug== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39llXhfSmqSmyaaWIyk9s1UlCO4hSvL076Cq3hKOdLh3IAb5OVM1j8dUA3ISMgyhzR1C41wsjSACaUDb4g== X-Received: by 10.13.238.1 with SMTP id x1mr11143743ywe.342.1487482113790; Sat, 18 Feb 2017 21:28:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.129.108.69 with HTTP; Sat, 18 Feb 2017 21:27:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <921C62E1-F312-4C18-9D6D-5F8955981DDB@gmail.com> References: <043FA78B-0C3C-4A53-A408-51C436A808C0@gmail.com> <921C62E1-F312-4C18-9D6D-5F8955981DDB@gmail.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2017 08:27:53 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.5 X-Spam_score_int: -14 X-Spam_bar: - Subject: Re: [Llg-members] 2016 Annual Meeting of the Logical Language Group, Inc. - call to order and roll call X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6414073909107774018==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============6414073909107774018== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c188a4a0099460548db6b2d --94eb2c188a4a0099460548db6b2d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2017-02-19 8:17 GMT+03:00 Karen Stein : > Gleki, > > I don't see how having the discussion posted means the thoughts of someone > not part of it will receive full consideration. > Okay, then I amena my proposal by adding a rule: respect opinion of everyone. In fact such discussions happen all the time on IRC. If you wish they can still be considered informal. In other words, noone can stop people from thinking or sharing their thoughts. One cannot limit discussions to llg-members mailing list, especially since this mailing list is not run in Lojban language. > I hadn't expected votes to happen on IRC, but I believe all interested > people should be able to contribute to the discussion equally. > And this is what will happen. > > .karis. > > > On February 12, 2017 9:47:41 AM EST, Gleki Arxokuna gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> 2017-02-12 16:26 GMT+03:00 Karen Stein : >> >>> While I can see they could speed up the meetings proper, I still have >>> the same problems with holding our discussions in this way. >>> >>> The first, and to me most significant, is that not everyone (and I >>> believe more than mukti believes) are not available for regular IRC >>> conversations. Speaking as one person for whom this is true I do not see >>> making comments during the meeting in response to the prior discussion will >>> receive any where near the consideration of that given to those during the >>> IRC conversation. Once people develop an opinion on a topic it is >>> significantly more difficult to change their views than if the new insights >>> are presented during the initial conversation. This leaves input of anyone >>> who has familial or other restrictions on IRC use (including any caused by >>> disabilities, for instance) at a distinct disadvantage and could leave >>> people feeling unimportant when really everyone has valuable ideas. Lojban >>> is not only important to younger people who are more likely to be without >>> family and other obligations, or whom are the most technologically savvy. >>> Such people should not feel or be left behind. >>> >>> Second, the issue of timing is also important particularly in light of >>> the above. If people are having difficulty joining in conversations due to >>> issues other than time zone, rotating the start times may boot help. >>> Further, such rotation just makes many not able to join in on a particular >>> topic, then a somewhat different selection of people not able to join in >>> the next time. It means even more fragmented participation. >>> >>> Email discussion is more lengthy, but much more inclusive. That is why i >>> am not comfortable with this proposed change. >>> >> >> >> One again I have to repeat my proposal if Riley's conflicts with mine: >> >> conduct meetings in IRC PARTIALLY since we have to wait for other members >> to appear. >> The logs of IRC meetings would be posted to this mailing list so that >> others can add their replies. >> >> This way nothing would really change and meetings would become more >> fruitful. >> >> >> >> >> >>> karis >>> >>> On February 5, 2017 7:13:40 AM EST, Bob LeChevalier >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On 1/23/2017 3:06 PM, Bob LeChevalier wrote: >>>> >>>>> Next on the agenda are the minutes from last meeting. Our Secretary >>>>> (mukti) is traveling out of this country for the next week or so, so I >>>>> will defer that item until he returns. >>>>> >>>>> Next we have reports of Officers and committees. Again, we will have to >>>>> wait for mukti to post the Treasurers report after his return. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I had hoped mukti would be back by now, and would have posted the above, >>>> but it seems not to be the case. In order to move the meetinbg along, I >>>> will suggest that someone move that we defer these items until the 2017 >>>> meeting. >>>> >>>> I call upon the byfy chairman to report. Pierre's committee (of one?) >>>>> regarding the development of proficiency tests is the only other >>>>> committee, I think. So he can also report. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks to the two of you for the reports. Reappointment of the byfy >>>> chair will be under old business. >>>> >>>> One of mukti's suggestions for expediting future meetings, so that they >>>> don't last for months, is that whereever possible, motions are presented >>>> in advance of the (next) meeting and discussed on various forums >>>> (including the members list, but also IRC and whatever else people want >>>> to try), before they are formally raised at the meeting. I suspect that >>>> some of the things suggested by the byfy chair in his report would best >>>> be discussed in the context of such motions as would support their >>>> implementation. selpa'i, could you prepare such motions, and post them >>>> when appropriate. (in the current suggestion, I suspect that we can >>>> have such motions posted as new business, and at the same time tabled >>>> until the next meeting. Or just post them for discussion now while we >>>> are still on reports. >>>> >>>> I am trying to transition myself out of active leadership/management of >>>>> the organization. As such, I asked Karen Stein, the VP, and Curtis >>>>> Franks, also on the Board, to seek via the mailing lists and other forms >>>>> of communication, inputs from the community as to what LLG should be >>>>> doing now and in the future to support and promote Lojban, and to make >>>>> recommendations for action. I would like them to report on what they >>>>> found out, and what they think should be done (either by the membership, >>>>> by the Board, or by volunteers). >>>>> >>>> >>>> I haven't seen a report from Karen or Curtis. We really need to figure >>>> out what LLG will be doing as an organization in a post-lojbab >>>> environment, and the inputs from the community are essential. Please >>>> report. >>>> >>>> I've asked mukti in his role as managing communications to work with >>>>> gleki and report on various issues that have been raised regarding the >>>>> management of the Lojban web site. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Again this will have to wait for mukti to have time to make such a report. >>>> >>>> Any other members, Board or otherwise, are welcome to report on any >>>>> other projects/activities that they feel the membership should be aware >>>>> of, and any actions that they would like LLG to take as an organization >>>>> in support of those activities/projects. At this point, I am just >>>>> looking for reports and recommendations, not motions. >>>>> >>>> >>>> My thanks to guskant and to gleki for their reports. It is not clear >>>> that either of these points to a motion to be considered by the >>>> membership. If I am incorrect, please proceed as mentioned above for >>>> byfy reports. >>>> >>>> After we get done with all reports, we will call for new members, and >>>>> elect a new Board of Directors. >>>>> >>>> >>>> It is not clear that all reports that will be made are completed, but in >>>> the interests of moving the meeting along, I call for people wishing to >>>> become members to speak up now, (along with any proposals by others for >>>> people not currently present to become members - we will need to get >>>> them to state that they wish to be members, and get them added to this >>>> mailing list). >>>> >>>> I will allow at least a full week for all of the above reports to be >>>>> posted. Feel free to discuss any reports, ask questions, etc. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I will allow another week for any additional reports, as well as motions >>>> regarding deferring of minutes and reports (which motions can be >>>> seconded without waiting for me). Then we will act on any motions as >>>> appropriate and approve those new members. Then Board elections, short >>>> consideration of motions, and we adjourn. >>>> >>>> Again, the following: >>>> >>>>> If for whatever reason I have not posted again for more than 2 weeks >>>>> from today, I ask the VP to assume the chair and attempt to move the >>>>> meeting onward, in line with the above and the Bylaw-directed agenda. >>>>> >>>> >>>> lojbab >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Llg-members mailing list >>>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Llg-members mailing list >>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>> >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > --94eb2c188a4a0099460548db6b2d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2017-02-19 8:17 GMT+03:00 Karen Stein <comcaresvcs@gmail.com&g= t;:
Gleki,

I don't see how having the discussion posted means the thoughts of some= one not part of it will receive full consideration.
=
Okay, then I amena my proposal by adding a rule: respect opi= nion of everyone.

In fact such discussions happen = all the time on IRC. If you wish they can still be considered informal.
In other words, noone can stop people from thinking or sharing their= thoughts.

One cannot limit discussions to llg-mem= bers mailing list, especially since this mailing list is not run in Lojban = language.

=C2=A0
I hadn't expected votes to happen on IRC, but I believe all in= terested people should be able to contribute to the discussion equally.
=

And this is what will happen.
<= div>=C2=A0

.karis.


On Februar= y 12, 2017 9:47:41 AM EST, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2017-02-12 16:26 GMT+03:00 Karen Stein <comcaresvcs@gmail.com&= gt;:
While= I can see they could speed up the meetings proper, I still have the same p= roblems with holding our discussions in this way.

The first, and to me most significant, is that not everyone (and I believe = more than mukti believes) are not available for regular IRC conversations. = Speaking as one person for whom this is true I do not see making comments d= uring the meeting in response to the prior discussion will receive any wher= e near the consideration of that given to those during the IRC conversation= . Once people develop an opinion on a topic it is significantly more diffic= ult to change their views than if the new insights are presented during the= initial conversation. This leaves input of anyone who has familial or othe= r restrictions on IRC use (including any caused by disabilities, for instan= ce) at a distinct disadvantage and could leave people feeling unimportant w= hen really everyone has valuable ideas. Lojban is not only important to you= nger people who are more likely to be without family and other obligations,= or whom are the most technologically savvy. Such people should not feel or= be left behind.

Second, the issue of timing is also important particularly in light of the = above. If people are having difficulty joining in conversations due to issu= es other than time zone, rotating the start times may boot help. Further, s= uch rotation just makes many not able to join in on a particular topic, the= n a somewhat different selection of people not able to join in the next tim= e. It means even more fragmented participation.

Email discussion is more lengthy, but much more inclusive. That is why i am= not comfortable with this proposed change.

=

One again I have to repeat my proposal if Riley&#= 39;s conflicts with mine:

conduct meetings in IRC = PARTIALLY=C2=A0since we have to wait for other members to appear.
The logs of IRC meetings would be posted to this mailing list so that othe= rs can add their replies.

This way nothing would= =C2=A0really change and meetings would become more fruitful.

=




karis

On February 5, 2017 7:13:40 AM EST, Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org&g= t; wrote:
On 1/23/2017 3:06 PM, Bob Le=
Chevalier wrote:
 Next=
 on the agenda are the minutes from last meeting.  Our Secretary
 (mukti=
) is traveling out of this country for the next week or so, so I
 will d=
efer that item until he returns.

 Next we have reports of Officers a=
nd committees.  Again, we will have to
 wait for mukti to post the Treas=
urers report after his return.

I had hoped mukti would =
be back by now, and would have posted the above, 
but it seems not to be=
 the case.  In order to move the meetinbg along, I 
will suggest that so=
meone move that we defer these items until the 2017 
meeting.

 I call upon the byfy chairm=
an to report. Pierre's committee (of one?)
 regarding the developmen=
t of proficiency tests is the only other
 committee, I think.  So he can=
 also report.

Thanks to the two of you for the reports.= Reappointment of the byfy
chair will be under old business.

On= e of mukti's suggestions for expediting future meetings, so that they <= br>don't last for months, is that whereever possible, motions are prese= nted
in advance of the (next) meeting and discussed on various forums <= br>(including the members list, but also IRC and whatever else people want =
to try), before they are formally raised at the meeting. I suspect tha= t
some of the things suggested by the byfy chair in his report would be= st
be discussed in the context of such motions as would support their <= br>implementation. selpa'i, could you prepare such motions, and post t= hem
when appropriate. (in the current suggestion, I suspect that we ca= n
have such motions posted as new business, and at the same time tabled=
until the next meeting. Or just post them for discussion now while we=
are still on reports.

I am trying to transition myself out of active leadership/manag= ement of
the organization. As such, I asked Karen Stein, the VP, and C= urtis
Franks, also on the Board, to seek via the mailing lists and othe= r forms
of communication, inputs from the community as to what LLG shou= ld be
doing now and in the future to support and promote Lojban, and to= make
recommendations for action. I would like them to report on what = they
found out, and what they think should be done (either by the membe= rship,
by the Board, or by volunteers).

I haven'= ;t seen a report from Karen or Curtis. We really need to figure
out wh= at LLG will be doing as an organization in a post-lojbab
environment, a= nd the inputs from the community are essential. Please
report.

=
I've asked mukti in = his role as managing communications to work with
gleki and report on va= rious issues that have been raised regarding the
management of the Lojb= an web site.

Again this will have to wait for mukti to = have time to make such a report.

Any other members, Board or otherwise, are welcome to repor= t on any
other projects/activities that they feel the membership should= be aware
of, and any actions that they would like LLG to take as an or= ganization
in support of those activities/projects. At this point, I a= m just
looking for reports and recommendations, not motions.

My thanks to guskant and to gleki for their reports. It is not c= lear
that either of these points to a motion to be considered by the membership. If I am incorrect, please proceed as mentioned above for byfy reports.

Af= ter we get done with all reports, we will call for new members, and
ele= ct a new Board of Directors.

It is not clear that all r= eports that will be made are completed, but in
the interests of moving = the meeting along, I call for people wishing to
become members to speak= up now, (along with any proposals by others for
people not currently p= resent to become members - we will need to get
them to state that they = wish to be members, and get them added to this
mailing list).

I will allow at least a fu= ll week for all of the above reports to be
posted. Feel free to discus= s any reports, ask questions, etc.

I will allow another= week for any additional reports, as well as motions
regarding deferrin= g of minutes and reports (which motions can be
seconded without waiting= for me). Then we will act on any motions as
appropriate and approve t= hose new members. Then Board elections, short
consideration of motions= , and we adjourn.

Again, the following:
If for whatever reason I have not posted again fo= r more than 2 weeks
from today, I ask the VP to assume the chair and at= tempt to move the
meeting onward, in line with the above and the Bylaw-= directed agenda.

lojbab



= Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojba= n.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-member= s

________________________= _______________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


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