Received: from localhost ([::1]:34988 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1e1Phb-0003dV-SX; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 21:30:03 -0700 Received: from mail-wm0-f51.google.com ([74.125.82.51]:46566) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1e1Ph5-0003b5-KI for llg-members@lojban.org; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 21:29:33 -0700 Received: by mail-wm0-f51.google.com with SMTP id m72so19014449wmc.1 for ; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 21:29:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=xgmPMNm86gO7XjCa+hP/awdnNtS8yJF4hLBkBqkHmC8=; b=tdMcfheZcWKkWDNQvawCRNMDd60Q1/UOn8rYe+keTqj97R1ex7zOII78+FtTO8q0JE l+vYdmivCKXdh3S4P5i+os66X5oFtFPITKRvk6mTDiMLvg/kfsXRxMoNMNXcmxrvMgEQ cWebiARE+lr2AE/XlB059VN4Cs3YDMxsViASfO5ZzBCbt1VjzoW5ffU46VgE4Kqdl+Uv 4GaF9CS+ItqRb7BN5TtOfsPbL/0557ISgPRx+QjPHe+1CIfMYKpQdcJGGPCJ39dtlHrn OCbruQSYqGjapNkncqI9I+nk8taeQOubPW9VxH5E4VH6PVNaPc4/n3QeL2QSVlg1biBr pvlA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=xgmPMNm86gO7XjCa+hP/awdnNtS8yJF4hLBkBqkHmC8=; b=tAF9mABF+8nTSszJ/OevjCQztb9Et4famMXYxmfoC0jEqtlfbh/SfGTUIAWY4hMond pK01dVaJ0OZB1XDLTgnx2QoJG1tVqub6fbh9ZD2tgWAezYr0tEJg0XEAZH7mmNkKrPzr hx5UyvhQ1Jpdw9cIcM8x+u+2kIDgEbGJiEzFyDSRbN0V6kJP9pXuoKODGTh8WwwTkLmw Al9lN92rGLm53tzrGcuEjlRv9esX0fxcEm3YMDu/vQu5Vh3F5uDs+x8Hyn78KsVChkWa vNNvIzP1dMkSd3IMP65cnQb5O2Msp/m97FwmkUbO6d1aBOgeZ/hMxjs+eMEkUeKnHYwN atGg== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaWDv3WCBXkeodZQZa43CWS4SLdaOBuB45B6SOpGyptdxVCzLLJO STY2h/D7o4Y/U8urNx3hBAsvQmzCRDUA37Grpg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QC/y0TtdUvMGKwgnji71xs7UzcwPZMW8IurEFovuUZWs9ogEkmSYBi5ND7/elF+F9EuQiMuCzY6NpyTMnazLh4= X-Received: by 10.80.181.67 with SMTP id z3mr9573909edd.103.1507523363549; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 21:29:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.134.248 with HTTP; Sun, 8 Oct 2017 21:28:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2017 07:28:43 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.5 X-Spam_score_int: -14 X-Spam_bar: - Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Topics for discussion, old and new X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4740271899922701335==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============4740271899922701335== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045c0e929335a6055b15a26c" --f403045c0e929335a6055b15a26c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" My letters marked with "Old Business" were not meant for intense discussions (or otherwise we probably won't end in November) 2017-10-08 22:19 GMT+03:00 Creative Care Services : > I am doing my best to record all the topics as they come in. I hope others > are as well so we can have them ready to address. > > . karis. > > On Oct 4, 2017 03:53, "Gleki Arxokuna" wrote: > > As for Lojban as a cognolang... > > *AtomSpace* > > Roman Treutlin continues working on English2Lojban converter but the > machine interlingua he uses (AtomSpace) might be underdeveloped, which was > shown by inability to parse made {ko'a .a ba bo ko'e} constructs so fixes > had to be done to Atomese language itself. > > Roman made a chat bot for Lojban together with required modules for > AtomSpace: > https://github.com/rTreutlein/LojbanChatBot > but it used PEG grammar [and not any more la tersmu] to parse text which > obscured cognitive transparency of the project (well, English language is > equally terribly analyzed in this project and AtomSpace is the best > humanity has by far implemented). > > *Unambiguity is banal.* > > Lojban development looks like it's a programming language. > a. unambiguous syntax will save you! > b. ok, it seems not enough. But type checking will save you! > c. well, not enough. > > What's next? Well, obviously property-based testing and dependent types > but the problem here is that Coq/Agda/Idris/Scala's shapeless are by > themselves in their infancy. > Nevertheless, we'll have to deal with that one day. > By the way, the most technically rude polymorphism of terbri places was > proposed by Curtis by having a switch in one terbricmi that would specify > what another terbricmi of the same predicate can be filled with. But in > general Lojban and natural languages are already that way if e.g. mlatu1 > and gerku1 are of different types. > > > *Transpiling into proglangs.* > > la ramcinfo made a few sketches in regard to transpiling Lojban into > programming languages: > https://mw.lojban.org/papri/User:Ramcinfo/lojbo_staile_liste > #Inspired_by_programming_languages although this is not even a working > app (as compared e.g. to an older Yoshikun's la lojysamban app) > > No bridges to RDF or other knowledge representation languages are in > development. > > > *PEG?*In parsing Lojban grammar nothing exceeding PEG in power has yet > been implemented despite the existence of lots of facilities already used > for programming languages. > > In fact the main goal over the last years was de facto ... "not doing > anything new". PEG was first implemented by la xorxes and Robin improving > some things (and deteriorating other things) and unfortunately nothing has > improved since that time. > > *Bridges to other types of languages.* > WolframAlpha is a collection of math function in one place with the > ability to evaluate them. > It's not open source but e.g. Sympy and Sage Math are open source > alternatives to it. > > Problem: quantum physics/many areas of mathematics are not speakable. > My explanation: it's a Whorfian effect, English simply doesn't have good > words to describe it. > Easy solution: jus translate names of quantum theory functions into Lojban > with each cmima be le'i terbri specified in its type. > Solution: take WolframAlpha's database (or its open source alternative) > where functions and concepts are all expressed in one single programming > language for the whole database. Write a transpiler of that code into > Lojban and back from Lojban. > Farther solution: start optimization of this transpiling algorithm so that > the language becomes and more usable for humans. > As the result we get unification of the language of science and the > speakable daily language. > > I have a feeling that this unification can even have pragmatic effects (no > proofs here). > > > *Resume* > On general this whole subject of cognolangs and proglangs in respect to > Lojban is in its infancy (just like once humans could only say {coi} in > their dialogues). > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > --f403045c0e929335a6055b15a26c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My letters marked with "Old Business" were not m= eant for intense discussions (or otherwise we probably won't end in Nov= ember)

2017-= 10-08 22:19 GMT+03:00 Creative Care Services <comcaresvcs@gmail.com>:
I a= m doing my best to record all the topics as they come in. I hope others are= as well so we can have them ready to address.=C2=A0

. karis.=C2=A0

On Oct 4, 2017 03:53, "Glek= i Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
As f= or Lojban as a cognolang...

AtomSpace
=

Roman Treutlin continues working on English2Lojban conv= erter but the machine interlingua he uses (AtomSpace) might be underdevelop= ed, which was shown by inability to parse made {ko'a .a ba bo ko'e}= constructs so fixes had to be done to Atomese language itself.
<= br>
Roman made a chat bot for Lojban together with required modul= es for AtomSpace:
but it used PEG grammar [and not any more la tersmu] to = parse text which obscured cognitive transparency of the project (well, Engl= ish language is equally terribly analyzed in this project and AtomSpace is = the best humanity has by far implemented).

Unam= biguity is banal.

Lojban development looks lik= e it's a programming language.=C2=A0
a. unambiguous syntax wi= ll save you!=C2=A0
b. ok, it seems not enough. But type checking = will save you!=C2=A0
c. well, not enough.

What's next? Well, obviously property-based testing and dependent typ= es but the problem here is that Coq/Agda/Idris/Scala's shapeless are by= themselves in their infancy.
Nevertheless, we'll have to dea= l with that one day.
By the way, the most technically rude polymo= rphism of terbri places was proposed by Curtis by having a switch in one te= rbricmi that would specify what another terbricmi of the same predicate can= be filled with. But in general Lojban and natural languages are already th= at way if e.g. mlatu1 and gerku1 are of different types.


=
Transpiling into proglangs.

la ramcin= fo made a few sketches in regard to transpiling Lojban into programming lan= guages:
https://mw.lo= jban.org/papri/User:Ramcinfo/lojbo_staile_liste#Inspired_by_progr= amming_languages=C2=A0although this is not even a working app (as = compared e.g. to an older Yoshikun's la lojysamban app)
<= br>
No bridges to RDF or other knowledge representation languages= are in development.

PEG?
In parsing= Lojban grammar nothing exceeding PEG in power has yet been implemented des= pite the existence of lots of facilities already used for programming langu= ages.

In fact the main goal over the last years wa= s de facto ... "not doing anything new". PEG was first implemente= d by la xorxes and Robin improving some things (and deteriorating other thi= ngs) and unfortunately nothing has improved since that time.

=
Bridges to other types of languages.
WolframAlp= ha is a collection of math function in one place with the ability to evalua= te them.
It's not open source but e.g. Sympy and Sag= e Math are open source alternatives to it.

P= roblem: quantum physics/many areas of mathematics are not speakable.
My explanation: it's a Whorfian effect, English simply doe= sn't have good words to describe it.
Easy solution: jus trans= late names of quantum theory functions into Lojban with each cmima be le= 9;i terbri specified in its type.
Solution: take WolframAlpha'= ;s database (or its open source alternative) where functions and concepts a= re all expressed in one single programming language for the whole database.= Write a transpiler of that code into Lojban and back from Lojban.
Farther solution: start optimization of this transpiling algorithm so tha= t the language becomes and more usable for humans.
As the result = we get unification of the language of science and the speakable daily langu= age.=C2=A0

I have a feeling that this unific= ation can even have pragmatic effects (no proofs here).

Resume
On general this whole subject of cog= nolangs and proglangs in respect to Lojban is in its infancy (just like onc= e humans could only say {coi} in their dialogues).

_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


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