Received: from localhost ([::1]:35422 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1e1xhV-0003tI-3d; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 09:48:13 -0700 Received: from mail-ua0-f175.google.com ([209.85.217.175]:52380) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1e1xgy-0003rs-Qe for llg-members@lojban.org; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 09:47:42 -0700 Received: by mail-ua0-f175.google.com with SMTP id i35so14443181uah.9 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 09:47:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=HkqIonW8cO8eGE4OESWJJwdhzXPQkCKUA1Yixwg10uk=; b=m8palBaG9B3i55JTaT/lIDM5KwRfzixT7vgOJl7X0nZrlTKn7wNB331fMcUTSesoWZ FCxGHGaxztb7jGdrkMBWK2mbM46ME8+5RM9iIiT4LM2269NuyH6m/SKDospBzYDsE5mv sjv1/6T72GfbDkex5kz0Zo04qGynAWwmwq+tO8O1MG0qtFtHzn9pRaFdFHWExkN3gVOa 0EpnlOn6zBfDmCZ2a1OoACVPaZHsabkJ82h3vYM3v9kMDfPCvLIqhfs1t9v1K0TgKt6C tRK1tQpccB/d7sEUghoW00YlsbzdzmBVVwJxOMZcGpWkM0YhR0cbdO9kHU98tO9Cez+M lFCw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=HkqIonW8cO8eGE4OESWJJwdhzXPQkCKUA1Yixwg10uk=; b=KK9HdnUuVUCJNlsXJhJwtTzcoPDbf3Z9NQRCTz1hW9kvioYWshDdwrYMIiXj7IQQ20 B6K3CUz87p75IfEzbT6UqLC+RYPKtUV8bZ9CBy1tFb+cFFrfuxVTxBVlRgyONV7COMZu ogUvyIbqkGtMOhPUR07WQqlNgngPd63aU2gU4VUgTszvb/7de0sD2biis790vkzGxpvn AOiwdL3IAfWR64qpKcXtmhTgvWUHaqUUibvVtXlaeht1lYTnh2EhrdR354sOWjDT54la /aoLLr1qkehRaTVLLSg7KCRA5qaxNloi5O3uRbbWtWSJmBOKj2Q502bzS5M3S12qA9DM MVwQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaUd9yAdSc/WKoTAlsihxXPIPIYmCox/3J48gywzCfUHadGICdXh bmH7IVXCE+xmnrqOdqJtdGtziK9gdMBIuQhOqFI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QBIRXzRg3QZlb3ObzGAC86IAgTHn9/og9OPEagxsJZBbtB8qNqrrIyvCUmsuQ7SE90pcla7Yqv3/ey/OGWrSss= X-Received: by 10.176.65.41 with SMTP id j38mr8529428uad.110.1507654053642; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 09:47:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.176.18.75 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 09:47:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.176.18.75 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 09:47:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Creative Care Services Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 12:47:32 -0400 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -4.3 (----) X-Spam_score: -4.3 X-Spam_score_int: -42 X-Spam_bar: ---- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Topics for discussion, old and new X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4591665257603053335==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============4591665257603053335== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c1235924fd0d9055b341075" --94eb2c1235924fd0d9055b341075 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Gleki, I figured they were meant as something to possibly be mentioned, but not as discussion points. . karis. On Oct 9, 2017 00:30, "Gleki Arxokuna" wrote: > My letters marked with "Old Business" were not meant for intense > discussions (or otherwise we probably won't end in November) > > 2017-10-08 22:19 GMT+03:00 Creative Care Services : > >> I am doing my best to record all the topics as they come in. I hope >> others are as well so we can have them ready to address. >> >> . karis. >> >> On Oct 4, 2017 03:53, "Gleki Arxokuna" >> wrote: >> >> As for Lojban as a cognolang... >> >> *AtomSpace* >> >> Roman Treutlin continues working on English2Lojban converter but the >> machine interlingua he uses (AtomSpace) might be underdeveloped, which was >> shown by inability to parse made {ko'a .a ba bo ko'e} constructs so fixes >> had to be done to Atomese language itself. >> >> Roman made a chat bot for Lojban together with required modules for >> AtomSpace: >> https://github.com/rTreutlein/LojbanChatBot >> but it used PEG grammar [and not any more la tersmu] to parse text which >> obscured cognitive transparency of the project (well, English language is >> equally terribly analyzed in this project and AtomSpace is the best >> humanity has by far implemented). >> >> *Unambiguity is banal.* >> >> Lojban development looks like it's a programming language. >> a. unambiguous syntax will save you! >> b. ok, it seems not enough. But type checking will save you! >> c. well, not enough. >> >> What's next? Well, obviously property-based testing and dependent types >> but the problem here is that Coq/Agda/Idris/Scala's shapeless are by >> themselves in their infancy. >> Nevertheless, we'll have to deal with that one day. >> By the way, the most technically rude polymorphism of terbri places was >> proposed by Curtis by having a switch in one terbricmi that would specify >> what another terbricmi of the same predicate can be filled with. But in >> general Lojban and natural languages are already that way if e.g. mlatu1 >> and gerku1 are of different types. >> >> >> *Transpiling into proglangs.* >> >> la ramcinfo made a few sketches in regard to transpiling Lojban into >> programming languages: >> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/User:Ramcinfo/lojbo_staile_liste >> #Inspired_by_programming_languages although this is not even a working >> app (as compared e.g. to an older Yoshikun's la lojysamban app) >> >> No bridges to RDF or other knowledge representation languages are in >> development. >> >> >> *PEG?*In parsing Lojban grammar nothing exceeding PEG in power has yet >> been implemented despite the existence of lots of facilities already used >> for programming languages. >> >> In fact the main goal over the last years was de facto ... "not doing >> anything new". PEG was first implemented by la xorxes and Robin improving >> some things (and deteriorating other things) and unfortunately nothing has >> improved since that time. >> >> *Bridges to other types of languages.* >> WolframAlpha is a collection of math function in one place with the >> ability to evaluate them. >> It's not open source but e.g. Sympy and Sage Math are open source >> alternatives to it. >> >> Problem: quantum physics/many areas of mathematics are not speakable. >> My explanation: it's a Whorfian effect, English simply doesn't have good >> words to describe it. >> Easy solution: jus translate names of quantum theory functions into >> Lojban with each cmima be le'i terbri specified in its type. >> Solution: take WolframAlpha's database (or its open source alternative) >> where functions and concepts are all expressed in one single programming >> language for the whole database. Write a transpiler of that code into >> Lojban and back from Lojban. >> Farther solution: start optimization of this transpiling algorithm so >> that the language becomes and more usable for humans. >> As the result we get unification of the language of science and the >> speakable daily language. >> >> I have a feeling that this unification can even have pragmatic effects >> (no proofs here). >> >> >> *Resume* >> On general this whole subject of cognolangs and proglangs in respect to >> Lojban is in its infancy (just like once humans could only say {coi} in >> their dialogues). >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > --94eb2c1235924fd0d9055b341075 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gleki,

I fig= ured they were meant as something to possibly be mentioned, but not as disc= ussion points.

. karis.= =C2=A0

On Oct 9, 2017 00:30, "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
My letters= marked with "Old Business" were not meant for intense discussion= s (or otherwise we probably won't end in November)

2017-10-08 22:19 GMT+03:00 Creat= ive Care Services <comcaresvcs@gmail.com>:
I am doing my best to record al= l the topics as they come in. I hope others are as well so we can have them= ready to address.=C2=A0

. karis.=C2=A0

On Oct 4, 2017 03:53, "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name= @gmail.com> wrote:
As for Loj= ban as a cognolang...

AtomSpace
<= br>
Roman Treutlin continues working on English2Lojban converter = but the machine interlingua he uses (AtomSpace) might be underdeveloped, wh= ich was shown by inability to parse made {ko'a .a ba bo ko'e} const= ructs so fixes had to be done to Atomese language itself.

Roman made a chat bot for Lojban together with required modules for= AtomSpace:
but it used PEG grammar [and not any more la tersmu] to parse = text which obscured cognitive transparency of the project (well, English la= nguage is equally terribly analyzed in this project and AtomSpace is the be= st humanity has by far implemented).

Unambiguit= y is banal.

Lojban development looks like it&#= 39;s a programming language.=C2=A0
a. unambiguous syntax will sav= e you!=C2=A0
b. ok, it seems not enough. But type checking will s= ave you!=C2=A0
c. well, not enough.

What= 's next? Well, obviously property-based testing and dependent types but= the problem here is that Coq/Agda/Idris/Scala's shapeless are by thems= elves in their infancy.
Nevertheless, we'll have to deal with= that one day.
By the way, the most technically rude polymorphism= of terbri places was proposed by Curtis by having a switch in one terbricm= i that would specify what another terbricmi of the same predicate can be fi= lled with. But in general Lojban and natural languages are already that way= if e.g. mlatu1 and gerku1 are of different types.


=
Transpiling into proglangs.

la ramcinfo mad= e a few sketches in regard to transpiling Lojban into programming languages= :
https://mw.lojban.o= rg/papri/User:Ramcinfo/lojbo_staile_liste#Inspired_by_programming= _languages=C2=A0although this is not even a working app (as compar= ed e.g. to an older Yoshikun's la lojysamban app)

No bridges to RDF or other knowledge representation languages are i= n development.

PEG?
In parsing Lojba= n grammar nothing exceeding PEG in power has yet been implemented despite t= he existence of lots of facilities already used for programming languages.<= /div>

In fact the main goal over the last years was de f= acto ... "not doing anything new". PEG was first implemented by l= a xorxes and Robin improving some things (and deteriorating other things) a= nd unfortunately nothing has improved since that time.

=
Bridges to other types of languages.
WolframAlpha is = a collection of math function in one place with the ability to evaluate the= m.
It's not open source but e.g. Sympy and Sage Math= are open source alternatives to it.

Problem= : quantum physics/many areas of mathematics are not speakable.
My explanation: it's a Whorfian effect, English simply doesn'= ;t have good words to describe it.
Easy solution: jus translate n= ames of quantum theory functions into Lojban with each cmima be le'i te= rbri specified in its type.
Solution: take WolframAlpha's dat= abase (or its open source alternative) where functions and concepts are all= expressed in one single programming language for the whole database. Write= a transpiler of that code into Lojban and back from Lojban.
Fart= her solution: start optimization of this transpiling algorithm so that the = language becomes and more usable for humans.
As the result we get= unification of the language of science and the speakable daily language.= =C2=A0

I have a feeling that this unificatio= n can even have pragmatic effects (no proofs here).

Resume
On general this whole subject of cognola= ngs and proglangs in respect to Lojban is in its infancy (just like once hu= mans could only say {coi} in their dialogues).

_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members

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