Received: from localhost ([::1]:35504 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1e1xl8-00043x-GE; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 09:51:58 -0700 Received: from mail-wm0-f54.google.com ([74.125.82.54]:47917) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1e1xkb-00042s-FT for llg-members@lojban.org; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 09:51:27 -0700 Received: by mail-wm0-f54.google.com with SMTP id t69so7001010wmt.2 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 09:51:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=8WI5ihuqCSIMflrii6aSuRK6Kmxai+sN9QF5YueCm/Q=; b=abETS2oF9JsdoKqkezRmr+tb201BeLwPSGislQmNJXiEE6VaCdd6m4Ky+1U/c2TvDz nl9LsJxDDt2lgUgmY8upICtEzyxuy46WPybGN4ADXLeAtTlooyn1qL0pGwu962Q8qulI lWKO2ALxFKw5XKgeV73ScDuC/rrfMO8piM4pC5xEnrTsB4WCsIqDDxf+78Lg0kdWuAFS 2xVeapfYh2tvhw1pTJ4J01qCPHV708QMn7KjqbW5yIWTCTl4y/PDNPgEr94CYC76GkXG RaWrR/ftOpnwAGzurKypb4qyWY+ICXNPL72sq+wjJYMOim9k8zMrOiX76tINJBAO/iTD lLVg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=8WI5ihuqCSIMflrii6aSuRK6Kmxai+sN9QF5YueCm/Q=; b=kCwja4IhGRpRR3gqECB4pxK9JRvG1VjW2RKPKdcV4amd8QZX/XyE0Ma6mpWjs+FzmN J2ArE8vjcKjmZK+BBmLmPLJ4UBlHR7g4JakXvEQiR9p+ckqJGu0NCd4vyF1idUDPtpMg tUdrxu8SSKAiTj52a2dlvlZ6Id/ap0eJr4EaJj212le1qdgvVt3sotzA7EFb/uvnunzR XA214jl/1V5XN+hZzLIUZ1lxrCRvoIHA3ON6VpMlBrZIPDwibUE73drImw9CU5kTDZ3W Udh/GS/42gU+NAvIeYh1W6JSTwOhRGG5Dqtp4dxGAOfyhxKHgKfjI3aaMKoZFl9Iv9fv gjMA== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaVFscsYRuK57RWyr4NlNhdAqTpQQVvfsiv3thRV9KxvJq5VdQBG b7vl2J7nXKMmduJw02kMxkB/VUA7RE1IjbtmkA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QAxIAauEy9xgTAo789UeYxC6cqsiFRAlw1eDtwEE+AeU1gAuci/oyhg6Yu6QOESBSMW4oH+9dNFAaXIo/4zccc= X-Received: by 10.80.158.78 with SMTP id z72mr18564403ede.183.1507654278565; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 09:51:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.134.248 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 09:51:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 19:51:17 +0300 Message-ID: To: "llg-members@lojban.org" X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Topics for discussion, old and new X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1537215733393220393==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============1537215733393220393== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c1a1d5ab7d48e055b341db1" --94eb2c1a1d5ab7d48e055b341db1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well you can add a topic "shall we start in january next time" Em ter=C3=A7a-feira, 10 de outubro de 2017, Creative Care Services < comcaresvcs@gmail.com> escreveu: > Gleki, > > I figured they were meant as something to possibly be mentioned, but not > as discussion points. > > . karis. > > On Oct 9, 2017 00:30, "Gleki Arxokuna" > wrote: > >> My letters marked with "Old Business" were not meant for intense >> discussions (or otherwise we probably won't end in November) >> >> 2017-10-08 22:19 GMT+03:00 Creative Care Services > >: >> >>> I am doing my best to record all the topics as they come in. I hope >>> others are as well so we can have them ready to address. >>> >>> . karis. >>> >>> On Oct 4, 2017 03:53, "Gleki Arxokuna" >> > wrote: >>> >>> As for Lojban as a cognolang... >>> >>> *AtomSpace* >>> >>> Roman Treutlin continues working on English2Lojban converter but the >>> machine interlingua he uses (AtomSpace) might be underdeveloped, which = was >>> shown by inability to parse made {ko'a .a ba bo ko'e} constructs so fix= es >>> had to be done to Atomese language itself. >>> >>> Roman made a chat bot for Lojban together with required modules for >>> AtomSpace: >>> https://github.com/rTreutlein/LojbanChatBot >>> but it used PEG grammar [and not any more la tersmu] to parse text whic= h >>> obscured cognitive transparency of the project (well, English language = is >>> equally terribly analyzed in this project and AtomSpace is the best >>> humanity has by far implemented). >>> >>> *Unambiguity is banal.* >>> >>> Lojban development looks like it's a programming language. >>> a. unambiguous syntax will save you! >>> b. ok, it seems not enough. But type checking will save you! >>> c. well, not enough. >>> >>> What's next? Well, obviously property-based testing and dependent types >>> but the problem here is that Coq/Agda/Idris/Scala's shapeless are by >>> themselves in their infancy. >>> Nevertheless, we'll have to deal with that one day. >>> By the way, the most technically rude polymorphism of terbri places was >>> proposed by Curtis by having a switch in one terbricmi that would speci= fy >>> what another terbricmi of the same predicate can be filled with. But in >>> general Lojban and natural languages are already that way if e.g. mlatu= 1 >>> and gerku1 are of different types. >>> >>> >>> *Transpiling into proglangs.* >>> >>> la ramcinfo made a few sketches in regard to transpiling Lojban into >>> programming languages: >>> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/User:Ramcinfo/lojbo_staile_liste >>> #Inspired_by_programming_languages although this is not even a working >>> app (as compared e.g. to an older Yoshikun's la lojysamban app) >>> >>> No bridges to RDF or other knowledge representation languages are in >>> development. >>> >>> >>> *PEG?*In parsing Lojban grammar nothing exceeding PEG in power has yet >>> been implemented despite the existence of lots of facilities already us= ed >>> for programming languages. >>> >>> In fact the main goal over the last years was de facto ... "not doing >>> anything new". PEG was first implemented by la xorxes and Robin improvi= ng >>> some things (and deteriorating other things) and unfortunately nothing = has >>> improved since that time. >>> >>> *Bridges to other types of languages.* >>> WolframAlpha is a collection of math function in one place with the >>> ability to evaluate them. >>> It's not open source but e.g. Sympy and Sage Math are open source >>> alternatives to it. >>> >>> Problem: quantum physics/many areas of mathematics are not speakable. >>> My explanation: it's a Whorfian effect, English simply doesn't have goo= d >>> words to describe it. >>> Easy solution: jus translate names of quantum theory functions into >>> Lojban with each cmima be le'i terbri specified in its type. >>> Solution: take WolframAlpha's database (or its open source alternative) >>> where functions and concepts are all expressed in one single programmin= g >>> language for the whole database. Write a transpiler of that code into >>> Lojban and back from Lojban. >>> Farther solution: start optimization of this transpiling algorithm so >>> that the language becomes and more usable for humans. >>> As the result we get unification of the language of science and the >>> speakable daily language. >>> >>> I have a feeling that this unification can even have pragmatic effects >>> (no proofs here). >>> >>> >>> *Resume* >>> On general this whole subject of cognolangs and proglangs in respect to >>> Lojban is in its infancy (just like once humans could only say {coi} in >>> their dialogues). >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Llg-members mailing list >>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>> >>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Llg-members mailing list >>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>> >>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban.org >> >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >> >> --94eb2c1a1d5ab7d48e055b341db1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well you can add a topic "shall we start in january next time"
Em ter=C3=A7a-feira, 10 de outubro de 2017, Creative Care Services <= ;comcaresvcs@gmail.com> esc= reveu:
Gleki,

I figured they were meant as somethin= g to possibly be mentioned, but not as discussion points.

. karis.=C2=A0

On Oct 9, 2017 00:30, "Glek= i Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.c= om> wrote:
My letters marked with "Old Business" were not mea= nt for intense discussions (or otherwise we probably won't end in Novem= ber)

2017-10= -08 22:19 GMT+03:00 Creative Care Services <comcaresvcs@gmail.com>:
I am doing my best to record all the t= opics as they come in. I hope others are as well so we can have them ready = to address.=C2=A0

. kari= s.=C2=A0

On Oct 4, 2017 03:53, "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
As for Lojban as a cognolang...
=

AtomSpace

Roman Treutli= n continues working on English2Lojban converter but the machine interlingua= he uses (AtomSpace) might be underdeveloped, which was shown by inability = to parse made {ko'a .a ba bo ko'e} constructs so fixes had to be do= ne to Atomese language itself.

Roman made a chat b= ot for Lojban together with required modules for AtomSpace:
but it used PE= G grammar [and not any more la tersmu] to parse text which obscured cogniti= ve transparency of the project (well, English language is equally terribly = analyzed in this project and AtomSpace is the best humanity has by far impl= emented).

Unambiguity is banal.
<= br>
Lojban development looks like it's a programming language= .=C2=A0
a. unambiguous syntax will save you!=C2=A0
b. o= k, it seems not enough. But type checking will save you!=C2=A0
c.= well, not enough.

What's next? Well, obviousl= y property-based testing and dependent types but the problem here is that C= oq/Agda/Idris/Scala's shapeless are by themselves in their infancy.
Nevertheless, we'll have to deal with that one day.
By= the way, the most technically rude polymorphism of terbri places was propo= sed by Curtis by having a switch in one terbricmi that would specify what a= nother terbricmi of the same predicate can be filled with. But in general L= ojban and natural languages are already that way if e.g. mlatu1 and gerku1 = are of different types.


Transpiling into pr= oglangs.

la ramcinfo made a few sketches in regard = to transpiling Lojban into programming languages:
https://mw.lojban.org/papri/User:Ramcinfo= /lojbo_staile_liste#Inspired_by_programming_languages=C2=A0al= though this is not even a working app (as compared e.g. to an older Yoshiku= n's la lojysamban app)

No bridges to RDF o= r other knowledge representation languages are in development.

PEG?
In parsing Lojban grammar nothing exceeding= PEG in power has yet been implemented despite the existence of lots of fac= ilities already used for programming languages.

In= fact the main goal over the last years was de facto ... "not doing an= ything new". PEG was first implemented by la xorxes and Robin improvin= g some things (and deteriorating other things) and unfortunately nothing ha= s improved since that time.

Bridges to other ty= pes of languages.
WolframAlpha is a collection of math functi= on in one place with the ability to evaluate them.
It= 9;s not open source but e.g. Sympy and Sage Math are open source alternativ= es to it.

Problem: quantum physics/many area= s of mathematics are not speakable.
My explanation: it&#= 39;s a Whorfian effect, English simply doesn't have good words to descr= ibe it.
Easy solution: jus translate names of quantum theory func= tions into Lojban with each cmima be le'i terbri specified in its type.=
Solution: take WolframAlpha's database (or its open source a= lternative) where functions and concepts are all expressed in one single pr= ogramming language for the whole database. Write a transpiler of that code = into Lojban and back from Lojban.
Farther solution: start optimiz= ation of this transpiling algorithm so that the language becomes and more u= sable for humans.
As the result we get unification of the languag= e of science and the speakable daily language.=C2=A0

I have a feeling that this unification can even have pragmatic eff= ects (no proofs here).

Resume
On general this whole subject of cognolangs and proglangs in respect = to Lojban is in its infancy (just like once humans could only say {coi} in = their dialogues).

_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members

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