Received: from localhost ([::1]:43782 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eSRfF-0007xh-K1; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 10:03:21 -0800 Received: from mail-wm0-f47.google.com ([74.125.82.47]:40064) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eSRej-0007w9-Mn for llg-members@lojban.org; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 10:02:51 -0800 Received: by mail-wm0-f47.google.com with SMTP id f206so22972033wmf.5 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 10:02:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=GIM7NihGDcYfnZtaZSK1w3GWdeVFfoQnLU1D247w1+8=; b=hu9PKIqEl/ZtJU2v8HMOputsBC8MwQgM+l2boUmUHKE0P7f5Fkx3WOparJglWUuKmX SVNIX25NqmwrTPaMY4CjALgg25D6MzsVRmjqFq6ZFIXhCXRCFtv9TRD2fwNpE4LxFWb1 z1yZUO0ZBL2RPUopECrgxJJBLLWpM3T3qM/LPBlvWMTG38IbpjJEWZ4fYvTboEY/G6rC gdMngBHWOujOE7boCbH3mWTigV4Se0eIPZA5ld5GXKhDfGJg/JjUhRhnEN32aO7Y98P+ 7sGkZLq0Glx79t4btHtNJ4QNJTE9R9qF2q34wq+H7tT4LvwCZPEfW70PTBPsPwunOgeo kgtg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=GIM7NihGDcYfnZtaZSK1w3GWdeVFfoQnLU1D247w1+8=; b=F/zIoy5D8CQqiYpjVPcf7zhGzOD9frbJrEDBoDxFXOtTVYQtuX15KZp0EdIK7J2hS0 Z7HyXP7usQJqz8vhltwfIaOzMT0zaDOSVL69lPa/CybjR3eEqi/PuVEgxJckbPjMWviP JT4Z/1VsL+jycZ5KOa0cAk/7V7LrFdTNUPCJRWNq/Kt6uGKXb1jqxexXKu6GyibZSPbH I9C3n8d1lJgnaoaNpiFUnJg6GORAipA3s789tq8lBY3shhMv/YtzYpohIYMFz+cCB85R 9g5UuC3q9rgK6r0ksGDB+V9wJxTrW1ckbN8uyIgcU4YJX14tO+UZwL0ov48THSd9NAXe UZxQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mLjiq7fMAXgwReCRmZ6GsHJCp0TMZIJFkWBZ3/+zoWIGfePvaAr mbKvwUqEWqciNn9SVrtADuZrbK7qhWhx2DAFaQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBotsmmeNuDkD/6goXLRRHxVo2rVqRvUt5nFj11tvoKyGEldvAE9Xp9ClE/DTvupXC35aQcOps9Ams5l4M95P74E= X-Received: by 10.80.158.196 with SMTP id a62mr16143393edf.307.1513965762756; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 10:02:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.173.219 with HTTP; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 10:02:02 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <92D76729-D752-4738-BF24-2D5A6A0ACD4F@gmail.com> <0c93ad4b-af16-779b-229c-be364311fe23@selpahi.de> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 21:02:02 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.5 X-Spam_score_int: -14 X-Spam_bar: - Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Unfinished Business: BPFK X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3282820748233267910==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============3282820748233267910== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c19b9767dc72e0560f19fe7" --94eb2c19b9767dc72e0560f19fe7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2017-12-22 20:58 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks : > Okay, rather than just arguing about declarations and assertions regardin= g > the state of Lojban, I think that we can all agree that - regardless of i= ts > current state - we want it to have more and 'sufficient' energy. > > What concrete steps can we take in order to make this happen? > 1. Write out a list of todo things 2. Start working of any of them separately or collectively. Better separately. In fact such a list exists, isn't it? ;) And also 3. Vote less. Or else we get "51% of members think that Newton's laws are incorrect, abandon them". More science, less votings. > > On Dec 22, 2017 12:46, "selpahi" wrote: > > On 21.12.2017 23:33, Riley Lynch wrote: > >> Lojban is bigger than any one person, be that lojbab or selpahi or >> anybody else, and can't be simply declared dead. >> > > I am not simply declaring it dead. The many reasons that lead to this > state that Lojban is in simply leave no other verdict than the one I > expressed. If this verdict seems to come out of the blue to anyone, then = it > most likely means that that person is quite out of touch with Lojban (thi= s > is not directed at you specifically), or =E2=80=94and this another legiti= mate > explanation=E2=80=94 they simply don't have any expectations or hopes of = Lojban > ever doing great as a human language. > > One should not mistake my "declaration" as me wanting Lojban to be > abandoned. Instead, this sentiment (which plenty of people share!) is bor= n > out of repeated disappointment. I love Lojban to death, and I have had to > witness it fall apart for years. > > Watching the utter lethargy that has been inhabiting Lojbanistan is > nothing short of painful, and, frankly speaking, disillusioning. But ther= e > is a point when pain turns into indifference, and I have finally reached > that point. I cannot give and give and give and see no good come from it. > There's a point where even the craziest supporters of a thing must take a > step back and ask if it's all worth it. > > Lojban's community and history is unique, in good ways and in bad ways. I > recently read an old mailing list and the scales fell from my eyes. > Lojban's history is the history of a community self-imprisonment and > self-chastisement. Throughout all these years the community has known abo= ut > Lojban's problems and shortcomings, yet the same community chose time and > again to let some crazy rules about a "baseline" ruin any chance of > progress. Respecting those people's wish for baseline conformity, we are > now not much further than we were then. Not only did it stifle progress, > those same people didn't even stay around to keep using their "saved" > Lojban. It was all a waste of time. > > I truly believe that it is the people who thought they were saving Lojban > from changing too fast that effectively killed it. > > I am also no longer able to buy into the business of piecemeal patches to > Lojban as a means of fixing it. Either leave Lojban as it is and watch it > die, or fix its problems *for real*, taking no prisoners. Bob and the > others forked Loglan, changed it, and then spent years trying to convince > people that change is bad and a fork (usually called "schism") is the wor= st > thing that can happen. It's hypocritical. > > I'd like to end this email with a quote by And Rosta, who recently said > something I've been saying for years, too: > > "A complicating factor is that not only is the community divided into > those who care about logic and those who don't (and can therefore favour > CLL Lojban), those who care about logic are in turn divided into those wh= o > want to make the minimum changes to CLL Lojban to sort out the logical > issues and those who think that if you're going to make any changes at al= l > then you might as well fix some of the most egregious design flaws in ord= er > to make the language much more user-friendly. Essentially the two positio= ns > weigh the effort invested by the few people who have learnt CLL thoroughl= y > against the much larger but more hypothetical number who might learn and > use Lojban in future." > > > ~~mi'e la selpa'i > > --- > Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren gepr=C3=BCft. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > --94eb2c19b9767dc72e0560f19fe7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2017-12-22 20:58 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks <curtis.w.franks@gma= il.com>:
=
Okay, rather than just arguing about declarations and ass= ertions regarding the state of Lojban, I think that we can all agree that -= regardless of its current state - we want it to have more and 'suffici= ent' energy.

What co= ncrete steps can we take in order to make this happen?

1. Write out a list of todo things
2.= Start working of any of them separately or collectively. Better separately= .

In fact such a list exists, isn't it? ;)

And also

3. Vote less. Or el= se we get "51% of members think that Newton's laws are incorrect, = abandon them". More science, less votings.

=C2=A0
<= div dir=3D"auto">

On Dec 22, 2017 12:46, = "selpahi" <selpahi@selpahi.de> wrote:
On 21.12.2017 23:33, Riley Lynch wrote:
Lojban is bigger than any one person, be that lojbab or selpahi or anybody = else, and can't be simply declared dead.

I am not simply declaring it dead. The many reasons that lead to this state= that Lojban is in simply leave no other verdict than the one I expressed. = If this verdict seems to come out of the blue to anyone, then it most likel= y means that that person is quite out of touch with Lojban (this is not dir= ected at you specifically), or =E2=80=94and this another legitimate explana= tion=E2=80=94 they simply don't have any expectations or hopes of Lojba= n ever doing great as a human language.

One should not mistake my "declaration" as me wanting Lojban to b= e abandoned. Instead, this sentiment (which plenty of people share!) is bor= n out of repeated disappointment. I love Lojban to death, and I have had to= witness it fall apart for years.

Watching the utter lethargy that has been inhabiting Lojbanistan is nothing= short of painful, and, frankly speaking, disillusioning. But there is a po= int when pain turns into indifference, and I have finally reached that poin= t. I cannot give and give and give and see no good come from it. There'= s a point where even the craziest supporters of a thing must take a step ba= ck and ask if it's all worth it.

Lojban's community and history is unique, in good ways and in bad ways.= I recently read an old mailing list and the scales fell from my eyes. Lojb= an's history is the history of a community self-imprisonment and self-c= hastisement. Throughout all these years the community has known about Lojba= n's problems and shortcomings, yet the same community chose time and ag= ain to let some crazy rules about a "baseline" ruin any chance of= progress. Respecting those people's wish for baseline conformity, we a= re now not much further than we were then. Not only did it stifle progress,= those same people didn't even stay around to keep using their "sa= ved" Lojban. It was all a waste of time.

I truly believe that it is the people who thought they were saving Lojban f= rom changing too fast that effectively killed it.

I am also no longer able to buy into the business of piecemeal patches to L= ojban as a means of fixing it. Either leave Lojban as it is and watch it di= e, or fix its problems *for real*, taking no prisoners. Bob and the others = forked Loglan, changed it, and then spent years trying to convince people t= hat change is bad and a fork (usually called "schism") is the wor= st thing that can happen. It's hypocritical.

I'd like to end this email with a quote by And Rosta, who recently said= something I've been saying for years, too:

"A complicating factor is that not only is the community divided into = those who care about logic and those who don't (and can therefore favou= r CLL Lojban), those who care about logic are in turn divided into those wh= o want to make the minimum changes to CLL Lojban to sort out the logical is= sues and those who think that if you're going to make any changes at al= l then you might as well fix some of the most egregious design flaws in ord= er to make the language much more user-friendly. Essentially the two positi= ons weigh the effort invested by the few people who have learnt CLL thoroug= hly against the much larger but more hypothetical number who might learn an= d use Lojban in future."


~~mi'e la selpa'i

---
Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren gepr=C3=BCft.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


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