Received: from localhost ([::1]:44006 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eSS2G-0000Hl-KF; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 10:27:08 -0800 Received: from mail-wm0-f53.google.com ([74.125.82.53]:42260) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eSS1j-0000Gp-UH for llg-members@lojban.org; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 10:26:37 -0800 Received: by mail-wm0-f53.google.com with SMTP id b199so23471024wme.1 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 10:26:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=QkxqXBNaR/4nZEGO0zDr/ILadIFSYL36ZtcMt8TsMuQ=; b=FJ0ysyRP6k6EeegNVvhXmPJ6heJCYpcvBpRy59V0tkeKvBwFnjZHedE8Zvopw3Xcwe GLNyPp0QrLTWOsSU5mlDr3+n6wS7BsRQjKe8q1NfEYDNrOHw8lD5yd6A6wqHpkT737X7 k9zopHjwIZlkDYsd/S1TtCs1lMaAnenmVJxbsolp4Oe+8MJywiwoQCMbUC+7q43peflr 07RLCjlwvh5UO+39FkXU8jKx804CfxnNDmAi1IFJVAxm3h3gkT125ljnbEUiV0gEih5d D2Pk1Je6MZPbJZk1lTiWW+2B6guAGyRYnVK4FVmhBTzjfTuNcEWmXagsbfz/7Il/8HVl yC8w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=QkxqXBNaR/4nZEGO0zDr/ILadIFSYL36ZtcMt8TsMuQ=; b=oUhzIDrmkXg1/AYQWbk1GSwUDnT6OPp2unqxBxorkIPufAE1k7JOOaDOAXHTd+LLvR sIVnZin1pt3+8cZKU8pdfTW9r1azx9mwYYhDcYOqxmhJ6i51B58NEUctegqA0JZkfEtk L9P6AW+0GEayZv8pyQ7EzdASqgd7koSgs0wf82aBR/ZdqRXJ8fBzeeCu4iFon1qnIbCL T7HnXwaofkHp/sA3qFaO+Y3kRs+af3Mf/GnUjHHkjvhxbAdYcB3Zm+pS0Q+jEOWoN0iv TGQj4cTlOlH0wGe/CvDtcurKJteTLoYI7sCYnzwGsXKxV8v1BH8sYdSU+TgYWeSJIpUN WIjw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mJYN68HdyqscAjJdpTFNyegfVU8oRyFy7un6U4KiOm5iyvEKJT4 Rlgf9Vi/eXEOLr5FokTWTJqrD8raMsFa1CFCWg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBouiWXpKqk22j1NCGAoWfVixhxR93eHTffDsZ/a1t4SDM4ElsJqllu8M2OYHGd+n2jQQMfq9aCSsDJck/J0PDUg= X-Received: by 10.80.139.180 with SMTP id m49mr16933217edm.36.1513967189014; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 10:26:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.173.219 with HTTP; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 10:25:48 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <92D76729-D752-4738-BF24-2D5A6A0ACD4F@gmail.com> <0c93ad4b-af16-779b-229c-be364311fe23@selpahi.de> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 21:25:48 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.5 X-Spam_score_int: -14 X-Spam_bar: - Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Unfinished Business: BPFK X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3243048954585457213==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============3243048954585457213== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c19578e80bcf00560f1f4f0" --94eb2c19578e80bcf00560f1f4f0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2017-12-22 21:11 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks : > Should we try to increase publicity? > If there are no people who can solve pressing issues then unfortunately yes= . > > I bet that universities would be particularly open to > 'marketing'/organizing clubs. > > On Dec 22, 2017 13:03, "Gleki Arxokuna" > wrote: > >> >> >> 2017-12-22 20:58 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks : >> >>> Okay, rather than just arguing about declarations and assertions >>> regarding the state of Lojban, I think that we can all agree that - >>> regardless of its current state - we want it to have more and 'sufficie= nt' >>> energy. >>> >>> What concrete steps can we take in order to make this happen? >>> >> >> 1. Write out a list of todo things >> 2. Start working of any of them separately or collectively. Better >> separately. >> >> In fact such a list exists, isn't it? ;) >> >> And also >> >> 3. Vote less. Or else we get "51% of members think that Newton's laws ar= e >> incorrect, abandon them". More science, less votings. >> >> >> >> >>> >>> On Dec 22, 2017 12:46, "selpahi" wrote: >>> >>> On 21.12.2017 23:33, Riley Lynch wrote: >>> >>>> Lojban is bigger than any one person, be that lojbab or selpahi or >>>> anybody else, and can't be simply declared dead. >>>> >>> >>> I am not simply declaring it dead. The many reasons that lead to this >>> state that Lojban is in simply leave no other verdict than the one I >>> expressed. If this verdict seems to come out of the blue to anyone, the= n it >>> most likely means that that person is quite out of touch with Lojban (t= his >>> is not directed at you specifically), or =E2=80=94and this another legi= timate >>> explanation=E2=80=94 they simply don't have any expectations or hopes o= f Lojban >>> ever doing great as a human language. >>> >>> One should not mistake my "declaration" as me wanting Lojban to be >>> abandoned. Instead, this sentiment (which plenty of people share!) is b= orn >>> out of repeated disappointment. I love Lojban to death, and I have had = to >>> witness it fall apart for years. >>> >>> Watching the utter lethargy that has been inhabiting Lojbanistan is >>> nothing short of painful, and, frankly speaking, disillusioning. But th= ere >>> is a point when pain turns into indifference, and I have finally reache= d >>> that point. I cannot give and give and give and see no good come from i= t. >>> There's a point where even the craziest supporters of a thing must take= a >>> step back and ask if it's all worth it. >>> >>> Lojban's community and history is unique, in good ways and in bad ways. >>> I recently read an old mailing list and the scales fell from my eyes. >>> Lojban's history is the history of a community self-imprisonment and >>> self-chastisement. Throughout all these years the community has known a= bout >>> Lojban's problems and shortcomings, yet the same community chose time a= nd >>> again to let some crazy rules about a "baseline" ruin any chance of >>> progress. Respecting those people's wish for baseline conformity, we ar= e >>> now not much further than we were then. Not only did it stifle progress= , >>> those same people didn't even stay around to keep using their "saved" >>> Lojban. It was all a waste of time. >>> >>> I truly believe that it is the people who thought they were saving >>> Lojban from changing too fast that effectively killed it. >>> >>> I am also no longer able to buy into the business of piecemeal patches >>> to Lojban as a means of fixing it. Either leave Lojban as it is and wat= ch >>> it die, or fix its problems *for real*, taking no prisoners. Bob and th= e >>> others forked Loglan, changed it, and then spent years trying to convin= ce >>> people that change is bad and a fork (usually called "schism") is the w= orst >>> thing that can happen. It's hypocritical. >>> >>> I'd like to end this email with a quote by And Rosta, who recently said >>> something I've been saying for years, too: >>> >>> "A complicating factor is that not only is the community divided into >>> those who care about logic and those who don't (and can therefore favou= r >>> CLL Lojban), those who care about logic are in turn divided into those = who >>> want to make the minimum changes to CLL Lojban to sort out the logical >>> issues and those who think that if you're going to make any changes at = all >>> then you might as well fix some of the most egregious design flaws in o= rder >>> to make the language much more user-friendly. Essentially the two posit= ions >>> weigh the effort invested by the few people who have learnt CLL thoroug= hly >>> against the much larger but more hypothetical number who might learn an= d >>> use Lojban in future." >>> >>> >>> ~~mi'e la selpa'i >>> >>> --- >>> Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren gepr=C3=BCft. >>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Llg-members mailing list >>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Llg-members mailing list >>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > --94eb2c19578e80bcf00560f1f4f0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2017-12-22 21:11 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks <curtis.w.franks@gma= il.com>:
= Should we try to increase publicity?

= If there are no people who can solve pressing issues then unfortunately yes= .
=C2=A0

I bet that universities would b= e particularly open to 'marketing'/organizing clubs.

On Dec 22, 2017 13:03, "Gleki Arxokuna" <<= a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.= name@gmail.com> wrote:


2017-12-22 20:58 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks &l= t;curtis.w.f= ranks@gmail.com>:
Okay, rather than just arguing about declaratio= ns and assertions regarding the state of Lojban, I think that we can all ag= ree that - regardless of its current state - we want it to have more and &#= 39;sufficient' energy.

What concrete steps can we take in order to make this happen?
<= /div>

1. Write out a list of todo things
2. Start working of any of them separately or collectively. Better = separately.

In fact such a list exists, isn't = it? ;)

And also

3. Vote l= ess. Or else we get "51% of members think that Newton's laws are i= ncorrect, abandon them". More science, less votings.


=C2=A0

On = Dec 22, 2017 12:46, "selpahi" <selpahi@selpahi.de> wrote:
On 21.12.2017 23:33, Riley Lynch wrot= e:
Lojban is bigger than any one person, be that lojbab or selpahi or anybody = else, and can't be simply declared dead.

I am not simply declaring it dead. The many reasons that lead to this state= that Lojban is in simply leave no other verdict than the one I expressed. = If this verdict seems to come out of the blue to anyone, then it most likel= y means that that person is quite out of touch with Lojban (this is not dir= ected at you specifically), or =E2=80=94and this another legitimate explana= tion=E2=80=94 they simply don't have any expectations or hopes of Lojba= n ever doing great as a human language.

One should not mistake my "declaration" as me wanting Lojban to b= e abandoned. Instead, this sentiment (which plenty of people share!) is bor= n out of repeated disappointment. I love Lojban to death, and I have had to= witness it fall apart for years.

Watching the utter lethargy that has been inhabiting Lojbanistan is nothing= short of painful, and, frankly speaking, disillusioning. But there is a po= int when pain turns into indifference, and I have finally reached that poin= t. I cannot give and give and give and see no good come from it. There'= s a point where even the craziest supporters of a thing must take a step ba= ck and ask if it's all worth it.

Lojban's community and history is unique, in good ways and in bad ways.= I recently read an old mailing list and the scales fell from my eyes. Lojb= an's history is the history of a community self-imprisonment and self-c= hastisement. Throughout all these years the community has known about Lojba= n's problems and shortcomings, yet the same community chose time and ag= ain to let some crazy rules about a "baseline" ruin any chance of= progress. Respecting those people's wish for baseline conformity, we a= re now not much further than we were then. Not only did it stifle progress,= those same people didn't even stay around to keep using their "sa= ved" Lojban. It was all a waste of time.

I truly believe that it is the people who thought they were saving Lojban f= rom changing too fast that effectively killed it.

I am also no longer able to buy into the business of piecemeal patches to L= ojban as a means of fixing it. Either leave Lojban as it is and watch it di= e, or fix its problems *for real*, taking no prisoners. Bob and the others = forked Loglan, changed it, and then spent years trying to convince people t= hat change is bad and a fork (usually called "schism") is the wor= st thing that can happen. It's hypocritical.

I'd like to end this email with a quote by And Rosta, who recently said= something I've been saying for years, too:

"A complicating factor is that not only is the community divided into = those who care about logic and those who don't (and can therefore favou= r CLL Lojban), those who care about logic are in turn divided into those wh= o want to make the minimum changes to CLL Lojban to sort out the logical is= sues and those who think that if you're going to make any changes at al= l then you might as well fix some of the most egregious design flaws in ord= er to make the language much more user-friendly. Essentially the two positi= ons weigh the effort invested by the few people who have learnt CLL thoroug= hly against the much larger but more hypothetical number who might learn an= d use Lojban in future."


~~mi'e la selpa'i

---
Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren gepr=C3=BCft.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


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