Received: from localhost ([::1]:44124 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eSSBc-0000eT-Ji; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 10:36:48 -0800 Received: from mail-yb0-f180.google.com ([209.85.213.180]:45161) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eSSB6-0000cW-5W for llg-members@lojban.org; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 10:36:17 -0800 Received: by mail-yb0-f180.google.com with SMTP id r4so18268504ybd.12 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 10:36:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ht/nMlO5V1LeSY7TG2tuaMbnlF6BtT+OvJaExReHXXM=; b=IDoRmmDgHSoouat2ESHVl8E6oDgJ8AW8InaiGdNt7n3rQxYGsQmIAq63IVcBkW1i/E 4WaAF2hVMeVwXgWu5FR6hw8yfeKIqBLl1ri8Ce1SccQGVAXzG6Apbf0DbvKHqvnqcyB1 1tBCHU7kb/Fass8ESZgAicRNrxadG3O2gsYG/7q04avc8uhII2dC3KHL6hfohR5c4Rim jU0fFd8m5Zc7rLI96Zs8aXpIcsw1aIMVactF/vKTPj6DOXyZtPr1Pbo9Ok2m4AIYrzdz BU4C2PU1Y4hv3bU5SJOdbl1oZZYQIoJixncarqXQD5qllO9NYkLdP/PIQy+ZpP3Ii1Q+ u/Ew== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=ht/nMlO5V1LeSY7TG2tuaMbnlF6BtT+OvJaExReHXXM=; b=YnRd4wesKY5+JWUQnST6M7kbFwOPibwceDTpt1HOI/vEqaj3+hlTFYlrYnXB+t4X02 pBhA0/TduUc7p8gizjl7ZuLkPbKf98oxH7XGoH821I0LS7Pi2fWJRttooZc/V0ejzbqg k7+MwLgE2oTNznJ/1p9lcUwwx+6tdg++irjf+A40F9rw89nPUjASingB3eTfS77NRmEk jQvdxKCu7yf4EMaP9bgdItnHlFCcz0WDSAJEnlTJPyQmGo3TR4vInB5SoQxQ2OgTY9yf 4y4FgkPbVWcSWsYh1Gr6bZm9R8aaDOWtKm3NbHuilbK8TXMZVp4Gh9BWxWIGBU5gPudW jg6A== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mIsAyt2tS+HlNJbkKGpNunLDDKlL45dV+zsiV7MVjXXOZYS/ynB etC0aeQr0bvl1tnYlcWNiv+QkwlRrgIJ22AOB3s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBovraH6NsbgKwjMToJR+Qw3X8zSsI5sb2rTNwXHQAvtQQAhCr3S2Uvf33cbP5gqpwlGv1PcnJqzcaQOkFVEHFck= X-Received: by 10.37.250.18 with SMTP id b18mr9385336ybe.371.1513967770063; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 10:36:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.135.9 with HTTP; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 10:36:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.37.135.9 with HTTP; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 10:36:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <92D76729-D752-4738-BF24-2D5A6A0ACD4F@gmail.com> <0c93ad4b-af16-779b-229c-be364311fe23@selpahi.de> From: Curtis Franks Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 13:36:09 -0500 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.5 X-Spam_score_int: -14 X-Spam_bar: - Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Unfinished Business: BPFK X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7999595187765502820==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============7999595187765502820== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045ea16622d8d50560f21789" --f403045ea16622d8d50560f21789 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Even if not. But definitely if so. On Dec 22, 2017 13:27, "Gleki Arxokuna" wrote: > > > 2017-12-22 21:11 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks : > >> Should we try to increase publicity? >> > > If there are no people who can solve pressing issues then unfortunately > yes. > > >> >> I bet that universities would be particularly open to >> 'marketing'/organizing clubs. >> >> On Dec 22, 2017 13:03, "Gleki Arxokuna" >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> 2017-12-22 20:58 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks : >>> >>>> Okay, rather than just arguing about declarations and assertions >>>> regarding the state of Lojban, I think that we can all agree that - >>>> regardless of its current state - we want it to have more and 'suffici= ent' >>>> energy. >>>> >>>> What concrete steps can we take in order to make this happen? >>>> >>> >>> 1. Write out a list of todo things >>> 2. Start working of any of them separately or collectively. Better >>> separately. >>> >>> In fact such a list exists, isn't it? ;) >>> >>> And also >>> >>> 3. Vote less. Or else we get "51% of members think that Newton's laws >>> are incorrect, abandon them". More science, less votings. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> On Dec 22, 2017 12:46, "selpahi" wrote: >>>> >>>> On 21.12.2017 23:33, Riley Lynch wrote: >>>> >>>>> Lojban is bigger than any one person, be that lojbab or selpahi or >>>>> anybody else, and can't be simply declared dead. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I am not simply declaring it dead. The many reasons that lead to this >>>> state that Lojban is in simply leave no other verdict than the one I >>>> expressed. If this verdict seems to come out of the blue to anyone, th= en it >>>> most likely means that that person is quite out of touch with Lojban (= this >>>> is not directed at you specifically), or =E2=80=94and this another leg= itimate >>>> explanation=E2=80=94 they simply don't have any expectations or hopes = of Lojban >>>> ever doing great as a human language. >>>> >>>> One should not mistake my "declaration" as me wanting Lojban to be >>>> abandoned. Instead, this sentiment (which plenty of people share!) is = born >>>> out of repeated disappointment. I love Lojban to death, and I have had= to >>>> witness it fall apart for years. >>>> >>>> Watching the utter lethargy that has been inhabiting Lojbanistan is >>>> nothing short of painful, and, frankly speaking, disillusioning. But t= here >>>> is a point when pain turns into indifference, and I have finally reach= ed >>>> that point. I cannot give and give and give and see no good come from = it. >>>> There's a point where even the craziest supporters of a thing must tak= e a >>>> step back and ask if it's all worth it. >>>> >>>> Lojban's community and history is unique, in good ways and in bad ways= . >>>> I recently read an old mailing list and the scales fell from my eyes. >>>> Lojban's history is the history of a community self-imprisonment and >>>> self-chastisement. Throughout all these years the community has known = about >>>> Lojban's problems and shortcomings, yet the same community chose time = and >>>> again to let some crazy rules about a "baseline" ruin any chance of >>>> progress. Respecting those people's wish for baseline conformity, we a= re >>>> now not much further than we were then. Not only did it stifle progres= s, >>>> those same people didn't even stay around to keep using their "saved" >>>> Lojban. It was all a waste of time. >>>> >>>> I truly believe that it is the people who thought they were saving >>>> Lojban from changing too fast that effectively killed it. >>>> >>>> I am also no longer able to buy into the business of piecemeal patches >>>> to Lojban as a means of fixing it. Either leave Lojban as it is and wa= tch >>>> it die, or fix its problems *for real*, taking no prisoners. Bob and t= he >>>> others forked Loglan, changed it, and then spent years trying to convi= nce >>>> people that change is bad and a fork (usually called "schism") is the = worst >>>> thing that can happen. It's hypocritical. >>>> >>>> I'd like to end this email with a quote by And Rosta, who recently sai= d >>>> something I've been saying for years, too: >>>> >>>> "A complicating factor is that not only is the community divided into >>>> those who care about logic and those who don't (and can therefore favo= ur >>>> CLL Lojban), those who care about logic are in turn divided into those= who >>>> want to make the minimum changes to CLL Lojban to sort out the logical >>>> issues and those who think that if you're going to make any changes at= all >>>> then you might as well fix some of the most egregious design flaws in = order >>>> to make the language much more user-friendly. Essentially the two posi= tions >>>> weigh the effort invested by the few people who have learnt CLL thorou= ghly >>>> against the much larger but more hypothetical number who might learn a= nd >>>> use Lojban in future." >>>> >>>> >>>> ~~mi'e la selpa'i >>>> >>>> --- >>>> Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren gepr=C3=BCft= . >>>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Llg-members mailing list >>>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Llg-members mailing list >>>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Llg-members mailing list >>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > --f403045ea16622d8d50560f21789 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Even if not. But definitely if so.

On Dec 22, 2017 13:27, "Gleki= Arxokuna" <gleki.is.= my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2017-12-22 21:11 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks <curtis= .w.franks@gmail.com>:
Should we try to increase publicity?
If there are no people who can solve pressing issues then unfo= rtunately yes.
=C2=A0

I bet that univers= ities would be particularly open to 'marketing'/organizing clubs.

On Dec 22, 2017 13:03, "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com= > wrote:





=
=C2=A0

On Dec 22, 2017 12:46, "selpahi" <
selpahi@selpahi.de&g= t; wrote:
On 21.12.2017 23:33, Riley Lynch wrote:
Lojban is bigger than any one person, be that lojbab or selpahi or anybody = else, and can't be simply declared dead.

I am not simply declaring it dead. The many reasons that lead to this state= that Lojban is in simply leave no other verdict than the one I expressed. = If this verdict seems to come out of the blue to anyone, then it most likel= y means that that person is quite out of touch with Lojban (this is not dir= ected at you specifically), or =E2=80=94and this another legitimate explana= tion=E2=80=94 they simply don't have any expectations or hopes of Lojba= n ever doing great as a human language.

One should not mistake my "declaration" as me wanting Lojban to b= e abandoned. Instead, this sentiment (which plenty of people share!) is bor= n out of repeated disappointment. I love Lojban to death, and I have had to= witness it fall apart for years.

Watching the utter lethargy that has been inhabiting Lojbanistan is nothing= short of painful, and, frankly speaking, disillusioning. But there is a po= int when pain turns into indifference, and I have finally reached that poin= t. I cannot give and give and give and see no good come from it. There'= s a point where even the craziest supporters of a thing must take a step ba= ck and ask if it's all worth it.

Lojban's community and history is unique, in good ways and in bad ways.= I recently read an old mailing list and the scales fell from my eyes. Lojb= an's history is the history of a community self-imprisonment and self-c= hastisement. Throughout all these years the community has known about Lojba= n's problems and shortcomings, yet the same community chose time and ag= ain to let some crazy rules about a "baseline" ruin any chance of= progress. Respecting those people's wish for baseline conformity, we a= re now not much further than we were then. Not only did it stifle progress,= those same people didn't even stay around to keep using their "sa= ved" Lojban. It was all a waste of time.

I truly believe that it is the people who thought they were saving Lojban f= rom changing too fast that effectively killed it.

I am also no longer able to buy into the business of piecemeal patches to L= ojban as a means of fixing it. Either leave Lojban as it is and watch it di= e, or fix its problems *for real*, taking no prisoners. Bob and the others = forked Loglan, changed it, and then spent years trying to convince people t= hat change is bad and a fork (usually called "schism") is the wor= st thing that can happen. It's hypocritical.

I'd like to end this email with a quote by And Rosta, who recently said= something I've been saying for years, too:

"A complicating factor is that not only is the community divided into = those who care about logic and those who don't (and can therefore favou= r CLL Lojban), those who care about logic are in turn divided into those wh= o want to make the minimum changes to CLL Lojban to sort out the logical is= sues and those who think that if you're going to make any changes at al= l then you might as well fix some of the most egregious design flaws in ord= er to make the language much more user-friendly. Essentially the two positi= ons weigh the effort invested by the few people who have learnt CLL thoroug= hly against the much larger but more hypothetical number who might learn an= d use Lojban in future."


~~mi'e la selpa'i

---
Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren gepr=C3=BCft.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members

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