Received: from localhost ([::1]:41022 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eTfAg-0004di-IQ; Mon, 25 Dec 2017 18:40:50 -0800 Received: from mail-io0-f195.google.com ([209.85.223.195]:40896) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eTfA9-0004ck-OQ for llg-members@lojban.org; Mon, 25 Dec 2017 18:40:19 -0800 Received: by mail-io0-f195.google.com with SMTP id v186so31441277iod.7 for ; Mon, 25 Dec 2017 18:40:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Ih+Hjj9IWlDC/eh3nJlr3vS/ZJxwgBlwLG7qp7YVI0Y=; b=t2boZ9z7hS4RZeUI/7PZTgTJ1AtCIgpH5Y6kzUF4Mj+IuvVcMHxsl27eC+IV/YQ7Aw qukvQUWOs2D2xZc/qt5iTUlHYjqqzKt25kpzXxxbJ1dY3Gfx9bY83rZPbXTP8knuu1t6 c0aZIHg3UdGpvuSstZRTfx/JqArmX+k4v/e1I5RbQ4lPMxnAebRxmuvlQL3LX/g1k9KV tFSR1+XQTqW8nNb5cUMAL0HDMLGC4ygeIqM4gVOtMzRHPXxq4AwIGSY3iER7ru2g5vc4 wjQqnvFYEI1buMMoO8vItl5cOgp9gi5N1LrzVMxo1UnVvBq7HrcptgS85rrom+QMOHy3 SIIA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=Ih+Hjj9IWlDC/eh3nJlr3vS/ZJxwgBlwLG7qp7YVI0Y=; b=BX1pVZIkfIe+uznzxVZiBaL1cnUSEe6IfC9uv4jElfu44HE40OIgc5CSDIv5QkjIKk lU62xrjds7sgx7XxparBvbD+2ceQKXMELU0XFOMQGdNZoHk3i2T+z5k8OtdS1Y+knGCm YAQYTkLAOLsjQk+TWDv3fcN757PJLR3E0tTT0LnfB7hvaoziZM8rK0DFhoRQQb8JtnyT D9N1/VBz3hOiU15IcFYfmNze5JzVKoT3pEIZ3gKnZADARu0QP8iMFD04KY6VohH8YDSN M02YJaof1YF3CIOqbL2o9ZfGAIfdeC0xhvcQVxLqsayr1RuBqLsweSmVe6hPGHNpBs5t 4kiA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mKPsQnR8CCkUWoj1+aYKtH2GynrtJhU7h7m7J4fbifBANk8eEG3 0XdyzQoGtUvgsVDg6QEvSayIXoR2GS/HuUXFQ84T2g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBov1PQojCS54MgPmXDcsOFnjRzMQGy5bXXq43NReM1+oro1zk0ZpvIrodOd9vdeQEt48NxV65Go8sSbzlYTvAOY= X-Received: by 10.107.63.3 with SMTP id m3mr20442258ioa.137.1514256010738; Mon, 25 Dec 2017 18:40:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.36.41.19 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Dec 2017 18:39:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <7074953.2veMK8YGUJ@caracal> From: guskant Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2017 02:39:50 +0000 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -4.3 (----) X-Spam_score: -4.3 X-Spam_score_int: -42 X-Spam_bar: ---- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Unfinished Business: BPFK X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org 2017-12-25 13:01 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna : > > > 2017-12-25 15:11 GMT+03:00 guskant : >> >> 2017-12-25 5:51 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna : >> > >> > >> > The source of CLL is published on github.com and can be cloned anywhere. >> > E.g. on can make a copy on framagit.org and gitlab.com >> > The more copies the more chances this stuff won't be lost. >> > >> > Since the time CLL can be deployed from docker we nolonger depend on >> > Robin's >> > servers in regard to CLL. >> >> doi la gleki >> >> Do you mean the repository governed by the Lojban Coders' Group? >> https://github.com/lojban/cll >> >> I said "we need another place where plural responsible people and no >> others can manage the contents", while the Lojban Coders' Group does >> not consists of responsible people, but anarchists with no rule [1]. >> There is no guarantee that they would not replace the CLL 1.1 with >> their own CLL 2.0 as a new "official" version of the CLL. > > > It's a matter of minutes to clone CLL to another place. Do you have some > technical problems? No server is ideal, lightning pu'i hit Google's servers > once with losing sensitive users' data. > I see. Then your response is out of my topic. I don't talk about stability of server but reliability of the contents. Any contents governed by the Lojban Coders' Group are unreliable because the group has no responsibility on the official documents. That group is not a part of any official committee of the LLG but a group of voluntary engineers with no rule even though some of the members are identical with some members of the LLG. We can freely fork their repositories, but the original contents are already unreliable. I need reliable references for my future Lojbanic works. Actually, there is not a big problem about the CLL because it is already published in the forms of printed and digital book. I wish only that the identical free documents were managed by reliable archivists. As for the BPFK documents, I have more trouble with them because they are unstable contents and placed on a website managed by unreliable people, i.e. anyone who have account to edit the pages. > >> >> >> > >> > A backup of mw.lojban.org might be necessary though. >> > >> >> If my motion in the previous LLG meeting were adopted, mw.lojban.org >> would be free from any restriction as an "official" website, and then >> it would be unnecessary to make a backup by the official body. > > > mw.lojban.org and Tiki has historical information. Your motions required > either paying for new servers or no preservation of historical data (e.g. > history of page editing). > My motion requires neither of them. Please remember correctly the motion [1]. My motion does not require paying for new servers. I talked about an optional suggestions about charged service of Github, but that is not included in the motion. I did not talk about preservation of historical data of mediawiki pages. It is not prevented by the motion. > For now we can ask Web Admin to publish mediawiki dumps e.g. once a week so > that anyone can download them and save in their secret bunkers. > Backing up the tiki and mediawiki pages is an interesting topic for historians about the community, but most of the contents are out of responsibility of the LLG. You and Robin may proceed it as you like, but it is also out of my topic here. > >> >> >> [1] >> The fact that the Lojban Coders' Group does not respect BPFK decisions >> was discussed on the public list. See Example 2.1 of the following >> message: >> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/e94H-wdh5gc/u2tzLm74AQAJ > > > > There is no mechanism to respect BPFK's decisions. > > You said "plural responsible people" but Lojban Coders' Group has more than > one LLG member. If all of them are not responsible then speak out what needs > to be done. I can see at least 5 accounts apparently related to current LLG > members and having merge permissions. > As I already wrote above, the Lojban Coders' Group is not a responsible group of the official contents even though some members are identical to some members of the LLG. > How is a new group will be any better? > By defining rules so that the group will correctly archive the official contents. > Fear of forking CLL by non-LLG members is justifiable but how to justify the > lack of rules+following action? > Unless the copyright of the official contents are clearly mentioned, we have no way to prevent people forking the official documents [2] and modifying them without any notice. There is a copyright notice on the CLL, but I don't see any description about copyright on the other official documents. I wish all the official contents were attributed to CC BY-SA 4.0, so that anyone who publishes a copy of the official contents must mention that the contents are modified or not from the original. I don't want to continue discussion of websites or servers in this thread. I want to go back to my first post addressed to Karis in this thread [3]. My points are the following three: 1. Any official supports are not required for advertisements, events or meetings. 2. I agree to dissolving the LLG, wishing that the balance would be contributed for education of poor children. 3. Future Lojbanists need concrete fossil (reliable archives) of the CLL and the BPFK documents. I'm waiting for a reply from Karis. mi'e la guskant [1] The archive of my motion is accessible by the LLG members here: http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/private/llg-members/2017-February/001357.html [2] "forking the official documents" if any. As I discussed above, however, there is no reliable archive of the official documents except the CLL sold in the forms of printed or digital book. [3] The archive of my first post addressed to Karis in this thread is accessible by the LLG members here: http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/private/llg-members/2017-December/001660.html _______________________________________________ Llg-members mailing list Llg-members@lojban.org http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members