Received: from localhost ([::1]:47944 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eUriY-0005Ub-FT; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 02:16:46 -0800 Received: from mail-yb0-f181.google.com ([209.85.213.181]:44248) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eUrhz-0005SA-CS for llg-members@lojban.org; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 02:16:14 -0800 Received: by mail-yb0-f181.google.com with SMTP id h189so4100364ybc.11 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 02:16:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Xq2M2qJAIAKtGgcE68v6jbjEyR7kV3i6+/T06WLSivY=; b=ENx/J8HRLQU0JV52bb++ql+/7+/c7ue3KfDWSlld0CyIEEJSexdBdDlEpUqMcOxdex 0kunhYnTV+p0u7EFnIMkdfVQhdxtvkpzsQr4c3FcaGvtp3Jp3fPqKfF0lLFj2Wx8caan WNXdKQwg6/9Jn/wwiqhSCI2tXIYS4FqvaMhzwCpSP5DMMXaVemLbiIvb9pb2C7WkXaVo NixWBGQL2ObSblDny45oZpVV7FbG8kAAVI15k1rwAnAvPhtnBghh7lqSnT5u4Y9RTzpP mOJ9p72shyKYt3tbyVX7z49jRl0Mrf/51+voMbzUbUQCfY97cgUxKvGPWeJxna2aCslO lwig== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=Xq2M2qJAIAKtGgcE68v6jbjEyR7kV3i6+/T06WLSivY=; b=Hz8nhFUsJETIs1eZMn5/Z8r9TlhWeQDIBD5Tcqhnsi+b7mmiSxo0N1Ri3rxweD9kmM RdJeitXC+uz3aj6/MVCtgZZeT5BuyouLJTZe3jVzS0ypLGl8K2abo2LhWVXsVpKEu2Ol APPKDFkRahZZPP2Hu5VyZ6oXcL8m+RD2jfC+KDZ1eARDpE2USaIuFiaOzfdAfXhkMVj3 G4KqiNDelZmJDMx5vmNIfcNCyLFnyO9C7OCECHB5iKHs3yhOeXzOlgk9/KdROWzW6lPD zlYj3kfJIBz7pYE1dyqQmXsMdBhkJnoaUjGH8yzu93sU8HIKilbEWmL4sNcQqCwWEBet eZKQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mLBbU6In3i24USzltau3yS2yrghWD4vvPgLGWiBvFw6v0xn2lOK uy1ZhYaAHOt9+l7pB7YOd4J96gxfh60AN0a7p/k= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBouI4edUzT1EhDv7YKYP+rBmnw0/T3PfxCENUDTXiButLdVYnjFNyr8dzUyVz5vEfHkDKbL3xJMkC+1tVSAikeY= X-Received: by 10.37.187.209 with SMTP id c17mr25413126ybk.29.1514542560228; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 02:16:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.135.9 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 02:15:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.37.135.9 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 02:15:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Curtis Franks Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 05:15:59 -0500 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Motion proposal - Unofficialness Disclaimer X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3931397908832964764==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============3931397908832964764== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403043d9e484cc906056177eb76" --f403043d9e484cc906056177eb76 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Dec 29, 2017 04:41, "Gleki Arxokuna" wrote: 2017-12-29 10:56 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks : > Definitely in English. > So, non-English pages will continue to be official? Sorry, at least in English (as an option, but possibly one which is always used - in addition to the same notice in possibly other languages). Language should not impact officialness, or the need to disclaim under this provision. Does that answer your question/address your concern (I may be misunderstanding). I would also suggest that the language of the notification match the > primary non-Lojbanic language of the article or content. The exact wordin= g > would have to be worked out later (and we could delegate such > responsibility and details). It might be helpful for the notice to includ= e > a link to a page describing what the disclaimer means and how it translat= es > into other languages; it should also automatically generate a category (a= nd > page listing all members of the category) for so-disclaimed pages/content= s > and add the relevant page or content's section to that category. > > I would add it either to the top of a page or section, as appropriate. > > The exact format, design, and immediacy of presence of the notice > (including its size, boldness/typeface characteristics, and background > color) would have to be figured out and authority over such matters shoul= d > be delegated. > to whom? I am not sure. Probably just a temporary commission which would establish the guidelines and approve of the wording in each language of concern and the first version of the notice which would be implemented. After that point, the power would disperse to the wiki's community (in the case of practical design and application) and to the LLG (in the case of oversight and establishment of regulation). The LLG very well might not technically have any power to enforce its regulations (including this motion), but it would at least have an official position and would ostracize/encourage the rejection of the wiki if the wiki community did not comply. > > (I am aware that such notices exist. The motion would make notice > obligatory - insofar as that is possible). > > ___ > > Can someone link all relevant portions of old discussions about this > matter after the motion gains a second or if it seems like providing that > information may be helpful for some ongoing, lively conversation? > > ___ > > I would like to remind everyone that proposal of a motion or its secondin= g > does not imply a vote in approval of or for that or any resultant/finaliz= ed > motion. > > On Dec 29, 2017 2:42 AM, "Gleki Arxokuna" > wrote: > >> >> >> 2017-12-29 10:25 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks : >> >>> I move that: All non-official pages or content on *.lojban.org must >>> contain a disclaimer stating, at least, that the website is owned and >>> managed by voluntary >>> people, and that the marked contents are not necessarily harmonized wit= h >>> the official design of Lojban and may not reflect, let alone perfectly >>> comply with, official specifications of the same. >>> >>> (This motion is intended to satisfy part of guskant's desires, related >>> elsewhere. I copied a quasi-motion by them nearly verbatim.) >>> >> >> In which language? We already have a message for pages in Lojban: >> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Template:Jbocre >> in English: >> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Template:Jbocre/en >> and probably in Japanese: >> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Template:Jbocre/ja >> >> Should this message reflect the language currently selected by >> mediawiki's user? >> >> Where would you like to put such message? In the footer? >> >> ___ >>> >>> It is a little premature, but I raise the following concerns: >>> =E2=80=A2 How do we decide which content should be so disclaimed? What >>> constitutes "official" content for these purposes? How do we review con= tent >>> and, later, disclaimers - particularly in a fashion which is quick enou= gh >>> to handle edits made by users. >>> =E2=80=A2 Do we even have the authority to demand or enforce such discl= aimers? >>> The website is a wiki and, so, can be edited by anyone and can presumab= ly >>> develop its own community standards. >>> =E2=80=A2 Is this disclaimer sufficient and sufficiently descriptive fo= r the >>> relevant purposes and desires? >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Llg-members mailing list >>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > _______________________________________________ Llg-members mailing list Llg-members@lojban.org http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members --f403043d9e484cc906056177eb76 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Dec 29, 2017 04:41, "Gleki= Arxokuna" <gleki.is.= my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2017-12-29 10:56 GMT+03:0= 0 Curtis Franks <curtis.w.franks@gmail.com>:
Definitely in English.

So, non-English pages will continue to be of= ficial?
=

Sorry, at least in English (as an = option, but possibly one which is always used - in addition to the same not= ice in possibly other languages). Language should not impact officialness, = or the need to disclaim under this provision. Does that answer your questio= n/address your concern (I may be misunderstanding).



<= /div>
I would also suggest= that the language of the notification match the primary non-Lojbanic langu= age of the article or content. The exact wording would have to be worked ou= t later (and we could delegate such responsibility and details). It might b= e helpful for the notice to include a link to a page describing what the di= sclaimer means and how it translates into other languages; it should also a= utomatically generate a category (and page listing all members of the categ= ory) for so-disclaimed pages/contents and add the relevant page or content&= #39;s section to that category.

I would add it either to the top o= f a page or section, as appropriate.

The exact format, design, and immediacy of presence of the notice (incl= uding its size, boldness/typeface characteristics, and background color) wo= uld have to be figured out and authority over such matters should be delega= ted.

to whom?<= /div>
I am not sure. Probably just a temporary commissio= n which would establish the guidelines and approve of the wording in each l= anguage of concern and the first version of the notice which would be imple= mented. After that point, the power would disperse to the wiki's commun= ity (in the case of practical design and application) and to the LLG (in th= e case of oversight and establishment of regulation). The LLG very well mig= ht not technically have any power to enforce its regulations (including thi= s motion), but it would at least have an official position and would ostrac= ize/encourage the rejection of the wiki if the wiki community did not compl= y.

=
=C2=A0

(I am aware that such notices exist. The motion would ma= ke notice obligatory - insofar as that is possible).

___

Can someone link all relevant portions of old discussions about t= his matter after the motion gains a second or if it seems like providing th= at information may be helpful for some ongoing, lively conversation?
<= div dir=3D"auto">
___
I would like to remind everyone that proposal of a= motion or its seconding does not imply a vote in approval of or for that o= r any resultant/finalized motion.

On Dec 29, 2017 2:42 AM, "G= leki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2017-12-29 10:25 GMT+03:00 Curtis Fr= anks <curtis.w.franks@gmail.com>:
I move that: All non-official pages or co= ntent on *.lojban.org=C2=A0must contain a disclaimer stating, at least, that the websi= te is owned and managed by voluntary
people, and that the marked contents are not necessarily harmonized with= the official design of Lojban and may not reflect, let alone perfectly com= ply with, official specifications of the same.

(This m= otion is intended to satisfy part of guskant's desires, related elsewhe= re. I copied a quasi-motion by them nearly verbatim.)

In which language? We already have a message = for pages in Lojban:=C2=A0
in English:
and probably in Japanese:
https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Template:Jbocre/ja

Should this message reflect the language currently se= lected by mediawiki's user?

Where would you li= ke to put such message? In the footer?

___

It is a little premature, but I raise the following concerns:=
=E2=80=A2 How do we decide which content should be so disclaimed? What= constitutes "official" content for these purposes? How do we rev= iew content and, later, disclaimers - particularly in a fashion which is qu= ick enough to handle edits made by users.
=E2=80=A2 Do we even h= ave the authority to demand or enforce such disclaimers? The website is a w= iki and, so, can be edited by anyone and can presumably develop its own com= munity standards.
=E2=80=A2 Is this disclaimer sufficient and su= fficiently descriptive for the relevant purposes and desires?
<= /div>
_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


--f403043d9e484cc906056177eb76-- --===============3931397908832964764== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Llg-members mailing list Llg-members@lojban.org http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members --===============3931397908832964764==--