Received: from [::1] (port=51756 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eUsoo-0000sp-Ma; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 03:27:18 -0800 Received: from mail-wm0-f65.google.com ([74.125.82.65]:39716) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eUsoI-0000qy-Oy for llg-members@lojban.org; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 03:26:47 -0800 Received: by mail-wm0-f65.google.com with SMTP id i11so47580695wmf.4 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 03:26:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=tj2389Bd/cA+dzhNG0L2yYrYFPfOnRq0oUJtmwsKyBQ=; b=eR9vPCpxZSHNFWKgm+Gt3Ze+dQ2PRcrAop9HE92ls/mc463n2aM+V8hDCqCY+lrGra oucY56KelEE1ukwkwxGrtPc0L3UK9FZ3PrrJBVU+UoRZAlUqXmDVR7d32NTuFWsbOGvv Z+V2dbKeAE+1N0uXmqUD6tGc2qKw6EhjcFAcS6Yt+/gsbDg/Gs++SVIuQrAZaIY6umOB In3jXV++4aUvvkMXvPfdwbmkCXSgSt8TgKF9xAfXvV9u6kYKiY4mj1jyqKqZwUuQ+jtf IxQu+6bntrTdKZ6u6Yg4TbAC/DiBE55+Aku0RkvS/IqvSMXIJc12A7MNYH8iyhj5XufL TZMQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=tj2389Bd/cA+dzhNG0L2yYrYFPfOnRq0oUJtmwsKyBQ=; b=S16zfKUiaUAOh6E6OyK0wsZ+ED/fhMU+6z3KNTY9eKDX9fDwjO+bu3NwQB8RvYPAmU oOc7Xn8qdJI0ncdpuB3sME+2OWD12b9kNOHDjTpKCQnZWXPXa0iXKsfbmLB18yHYWXZ0 jHOQhYklNSS1Jn1uDYNbFK3QY7FcxreIBEwlSzjCtEm9/gHzCdFsgHPmuWG8TtOyJncm CdA8ONnWxJCZgTkVK1QJ4Y3pCQ2RcbXzfr6GZgqky3AU9MAZMNn8WKG9fuWJLBCjwj2l NonwJMbRRrdrf3qM/LKHJXAF3FO+NGDIBm+BcHlrU1GSZkBh9g2UM0As2E0K6xctagoX 0tHg== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mIBPELHvJhdxEM+ROOWz7ODIfeNM53deKNaNfgEAVC8uqoLgQti F2ziCyEGxypXJM42Yq4XUTLeey7e2CBVMdhjLZxd X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBoukFQFmzZYlPSIj8y4VZtBSSNXxECMjWC6tJYN7gttRJsGOdFNrA/pzOEKZLKYHY5KPbc+uSlEeSsEXj0Av+4I= X-Received: by 10.80.174.201 with SMTP id f9mr44522804edd.139.1514546799499; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 03:26:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.173.219 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 03:25:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 14:25:59 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.5 X-Spam_score_int: -14 X-Spam_bar: - Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Motion proposal - Unofficialness Disclaimer X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0320130202499440432==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============0320130202499440432== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045c2928fadd2d056178e744" --f403045c2928fadd2d056178e744 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2017-12-29 13:15 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks : > On Dec 29, 2017 04:41, "Gleki Arxokuna" > wrote: > > > > 2017-12-29 10:56 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks : > >> Definitely in English. >> > > So, non-English pages will continue to be official? > > > Sorry, at least in English (as an option, but possibly one which is alway= s > used - in addition to the same notice in possibly other languages). > Language should not impact officialness, or the need to disclaim under th= is > provision. Does that answer your question/address your concern (I may be > misunderstanding). > > > > I would also suggest that the language of the notification match the >> primary non-Lojbanic language of the article or content. The exact wordi= ng >> would have to be worked out later (and we could delegate such >> responsibility and details). It might be helpful for the notice to inclu= de >> a link to a page describing what the disclaimer means and how it transla= tes >> into other languages; it should also automatically generate a category (= and >> page listing all members of the category) for so-disclaimed pages/conten= ts >> and add the relevant page or content's section to that category. >> >> I would add it either to the top of a page or section, as appropriate. >> >> The exact format, design, and immediacy of presence of the notice >> (including its size, boldness/typeface characteristics, and background >> color) would have to be figured out and authority over such matters shou= ld >> be delegated. >> > > to whom? > > > I am not sure. Probably just a temporary commission > Maybe you can propose something specific? E.g. the front page of mw.lojban.org has the following text: "This web site is dedicated to documenting Lojban and the activities of the Lojban-using community, and also serves as the official web site of the Logical Language Group (LLG), a non-profit organization founded in 1987 to promote the scientific study of the relationships between language, thought and human culture." There are also several links in the footer of every page, one of which could lead to a localizable page with a disclaimer. I can do the technical stuff (add necessary templates so that the text becomes localizable) but not the design and not the actual text of the disclaimer. > which would establish the guidelines and approve of the wording in each > language of concern and the first version of the notice which would be > implemented. After that point, the power would disperse to the wiki's > community (in the case of practical design and application) and to the LL= G > (in the case of oversight and establishment of regulation). The LLG very > well might not technically have any power to enforce its regulations > (including this motion), but it would at least have an official position > and would ostracize/encourage the rejection of the wiki if the wiki > community did not comply. > > > >> >> (I am aware that such notices exist. The motion would make notice >> obligatory - insofar as that is possible). >> >> ___ >> >> Can someone link all relevant portions of old discussions about this >> matter after the motion gains a second or if it seems like providing tha= t >> information may be helpful for some ongoing, lively conversation? >> >> ___ >> >> I would like to remind everyone that proposal of a motion or its >> seconding does not imply a vote in approval of or for that or any >> resultant/finalized motion. >> >> On Dec 29, 2017 2:42 AM, "Gleki Arxokuna" >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> 2017-12-29 10:25 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks : >>> >>>> I move that: All non-official pages or content on *.lojban.org must >>>> contain a disclaimer stating, at least, that the website is owned and >>>> managed by voluntary >>>> people, and that the marked contents are not necessarily harmonized >>>> with the official design of Lojban and may not reflect, let alone perf= ectly >>>> comply with, official specifications of the same. >>>> >>>> (This motion is intended to satisfy part of guskant's desires, related >>>> elsewhere. I copied a quasi-motion by them nearly verbatim.) >>>> >>> >>> In which language? We already have a message for pages in Lojban: >>> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Template:Jbocre >>> in English: >>> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Template:Jbocre/en >>> and probably in Japanese: >>> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Template:Jbocre/ja >>> >>> Should this message reflect the language currently selected by >>> mediawiki's user? >>> >>> Where would you like to put such message? In the footer? >>> >>> ___ >>>> >>>> It is a little premature, but I raise the following concerns: >>>> =E2=80=A2 How do we decide which content should be so disclaimed? What >>>> constitutes "official" content for these purposes? How do we review co= ntent >>>> and, later, disclaimers - particularly in a fashion which is quick eno= ugh >>>> to handle edits made by users. >>>> =E2=80=A2 Do we even have the authority to demand or enforce such disc= laimers? >>>> The website is a wiki and, so, can be edited by anyone and can presuma= bly >>>> develop its own community standards. >>>> =E2=80=A2 Is this disclaimer sufficient and sufficiently descriptive f= or the >>>> relevant purposes and desires? >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Llg-members mailing list >>>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Llg-members mailing list >>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > --f403045c2928fadd2d056178e744 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2017-12-29 13:15 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks <curtis.w.franks@gma= il.com>:
On Dec 29,= 2017 04:41, "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:<= br>


2017-12-29 1= 0:56 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks <curtis.w.franks@gmail.com>:
Definitely in English.

So, non-Engl= ish pages will continue to be official?

Sorry, at least in English (as an option, b= ut possibly one which is always used - in addition to the same notice in po= ssibly other languages). Language should not impact officialness, or the ne= ed to disclaim under this provision. Does that answer your question/address= your concern (I may be misunderstanding).

=


I would also suggest that the language of the notification match= the primary non-Lojbanic language of the article or content. The exact wor= ding would have to be worked out later (and we could delegate such responsi= bility and details). It might be helpful for the notice to include a link t= o a page describing what the disclaimer means and how it translates into ot= her languages; it should also automatically generate a category (and page l= isting all members of the category) for so-disclaimed pages/contents and ad= d the relevant page or content's section to that category.

I w= ould add it either to the top of a page or section, as appropriate.<= /div>

The exact format, design, and immediacy= of presence of the notice (including its size, boldness/typeface character= istics, and background color) would have to be figured out and authority ov= er such matters should be delegated.

to whom?
<= /div>

I am not su= re. Probably just a temporary commission

<= /div>
Maybe you can propose something specific? E.g. the front page of = mw.lojban.org has the following text:<= /div>

"This web site is dedicated to documenting Lo= jban and the activities of the Lojban-using community, and also serves as t= he official web site of the Logical Language Group (LLG), a non-profit orga= nization founded in 1987 to promote the scientific study of the relationshi= ps between language, thought and human culture."

<= div>There are also several links in the footer of every page, one of which = could lead to a localizable page with a disclaimer.

I can do the technical stuff (add necessary templates so that the text be= comes localizable) but not the design and not the actual text of the discla= imer.

=C2=A0
which would establish the guide= lines and approve of the wording in each language of concern and the first = version of the notice which would be implemented. After that point, the pow= er would disperse to the wiki's community (in the case of practical des= ign and application) and to the LLG (in the case of oversight and establish= ment of regulation). The LLG very well might not technically have any power= to enforce its regulations (including this motion), but it would at least = have an official position and would ostracize/encourage the rejection of th= e wiki if the wiki community did not comply.

=C2=A0

(I am aware that such notices e= xist. The motion would make notice obligatory - insofar as that is possible= ).

___

Can someone link all relevant portions of= old discussions about this matter after the motion gains a second or if it= seems like providing that information may be helpful for some ongoing, liv= ely conversation?

___

I would like to remind eve= ryone that proposal of a motion or its seconding does not imply a vote in a= pproval of or for that or any resultant/finalized motion.
=

On Dec 29, 2017 2:42 AM, &q= uot;Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2017-12-29 1= 0:25 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks <curtis.w.franks@gmail.com>:
I move that: All = non-official pages or content on *.lojban.org=C2=A0must contain a disclaimer stating, = at least, that the website is owned and managed by voluntary
people, and that the marked contents are not nec= essarily harmonized with the official design of Lojban and may not reflect,= let alone perfectly comply with, official specifications of the same.

(This motion is intended to satisfy part of guskant's = desires, related elsewhere. I copied a quasi-motion by them nearly verbatim= .)

In which language? We= already have a message for pages in Lojban:=C2=A0
in English:
<= a href=3D"https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Template:Jbocre/en" target=3D"_blank"= >https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Template:Jbocre/en
and = probably in Japanese:

Should this message reflect the= language currently selected by mediawiki's user?

<= div>Where would you like to put such message? In the footer?

=
<= div dir=3D"auto">__= _

It is a little premature, but I raise the foll= owing concerns:
=E2=80=A2 How do we decide which content should = be so disclaimed? What constitutes "official" content for these p= urposes? How do we review content and, later, disclaimers - particularly in= a fashion which is quick enough to handle edits made by users.
= =E2=80=A2 Do we even have the authority to demand or enforce such disclaime= rs? The website is a wiki and, so, can be edited by anyone and can presumab= ly develop its own community standards.
=E2=80=A2 Is this discla= imer sufficient and sufficiently descriptive for the relevant purposes and = desires?

_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


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